Received: from mail-qc0-f187.google.com ([209.85.216.187]:33403) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1YsRK9-0006f1-9S; Wed, 13 May 2015 00:43:30 -0700 Received: by qcrw7 with SMTP id w7sf2819243qcr.0; Wed, 13 May 2015 00:43:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:subject:mime-version:content-type :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=eysvgobpb1jSm9IGF2gVN1Ab4vZKOcaRMUG9Q2ws8L4=; b=VnKRojYx2tuYyjnxivIa6qd6eCFON6piHB1nUekD7kgQC7naQGOIabHUaMltiC/syq JUCYnqaY1YjXldRc8qgv/VXSGwLYwlx+OoGkxHbBlYX1F0qHIjFYSvakGaOg4XSqF2q9 UJLG6o0p//1eCxJhFObXEsp4/p5HM+Q9N+SstXYPksIZwkLCxDESwVDA6uKuReBjXpgf 7UlO5VxmkCoMMg0eUnPnXNSMnasYywcsmyTRLQw7WqNSUshqhR1JBeA3l+CJphX6fghG 4i11CPyyqQJKLXTlp2diXOPUtEt+IcZsDNs87qazpQ4XU3QW5VP6WwfhoqKy5mDmDgK6 A2ag== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:message-id:subject:mime-version:content-type :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=eysvgobpb1jSm9IGF2gVN1Ab4vZKOcaRMUG9Q2ws8L4=; b=NM1Ayd/A5pgbzTcdrP7aj9tMsshnFkQE0nC8TbAhmgEL61+sk/U90bp25jnIKjl+db gVh9GCZFQsnhmQ3GDpPszTUvR7nl5R+cVz0Xduz8bRT+uBDs+nPkaZrLhL5LgOQMEqLN EPpMZPSO+ERxgEfy0Cx9burquMvi5ZQULKjZiEzggQ/ekVz7Y8rwAPVCxW+8sFM+lewh s/rHIBe50ap8Qv+7erTXx9hLwNwOhqs3mlTKDfaDC33TvTHR3yKg2oc6ALSf8JBs5j58 qyBzgM0ncYA4+Gvwq3hd6wtfynT56lY/L5WZ/nVeaOkOx7L4rA+Y2LRcj4ZcQMQmRvrU fwLA== X-Received: by 10.51.17.40 with SMTP id gb8mr195816igd.6.1431502998954; Wed, 13 May 2015 00:43:18 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.107.137.214 with SMTP id t83ls401119ioi.81.gmail; Wed, 13 May 2015 00:43:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.50.79.130 with SMTP id j2mr195136igx.13.1431502998757; Wed, 13 May 2015 00:43:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 00:43:17 -0700 (PDT) From: guskant To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <49b0aba3-35fe-4edc-baed-9fe82afda84c@googlegroups.com> Subject: [bpfk] to'e and causation sumtcita compounds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_7742_1267691698.1431502997101" X-Original-Sender: gusni.kantu@gmail.com Reply-To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bpfk-list@googlegroups.com; contact bpfk-list+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 972099695765 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Content-Length: 11681 ------=_Part_7742_1267691698.1431502997101 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_7743_909106399.1431502997101" ------=_Part_7743_909106399.1431502997101 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 We have agreement on the meanings of compounds of causation sumtcita. http://mw.lojban.org/papri/BPFK_Section:_Causation_sumtcita#Impact ri'a == with cause ri'anai == not with cause (regardless of cause) to'eri'a == prevented by to'eri'anai == not prevented by (despite) However, the page includes neither examples nor detailed explanations for the cases of {to'e...}. I think of preparing another page for that purpose, but I need your opinion especially on my understanding about {to'eki'u}, {to'emu'i}, {to'eni'i}, {to'eri'a} as well as {to'eseja'e}. I think they are meaningful only in the scope of negation. For example, let's examine the following sentences. 1. Lojban sentences for "I give up sleeping because of your loud noise." 1-1. {ki'u} in affirmative sentence. {mi radycru lo nu sipna kei ki'u lo nu do cladu} I give up sleeping because of your loud noise. Reasonable. 1-2. {to'eki'u} in affirmative sentence. {mi radycru lo nu sipna kei to'eki'u lo nu do cladu} I give up sleeping prevented by your loud noise. It may signify "Your loud noise prevents me from giving up sleeping, still 'I give up sleeping' is true." Unusual. 2. Lojban sentences for "I don't sleep because of your loud noise." 2-1-1. {ki'u} in the scope of {naku}. {naku mi sipna ki'u lo nu do cladu} "I sleep because of your loud noise" is false. It may signify: -1. "The reason for my sleeping is not your loud noise," [1] or, -2. "I don't sleep; if I were sleeping, the reason for my sleeping would be your loud noise." Both interpretations are unusual. 2-1-2. {to'eki'u} in the scope of {naku}. {naku mi sipna to'eki'u lo nu do cladu} "I sleep prevented by your loud noise" is false. It may signify: -1. "Something that prevents my sleeping is not your loud noise," [2] or, -2. "Your loud noise prevents me from sleeping, and 'I sleep' is false." Both interpretations are reasonable. 2-2-1. {ki'u} out of the scope of {naku}. {ki'u lo nu do cladu kei naku mi sipna} Because of your loud noise, "I sleep" is false. Reasonable. 2-2-2. {to'eki'u} out of the scope of {naku}. {to'eki'u lo nu do cladu kei naku mi sipna} Prevented by your loud noise, "I sleep" is false. It may signify "Your loud noise prevents me from no-sleeping, still 'I don't sleep' is true." Unusual. Notes. [1] The interpretation 2-1-1-1 includes the meaning of {mi sipna ki'unai lo nu do cladu}, but does not say {mi sipna} is true or not. [2] The interpretation 2-1-2-1 includes the meaning of {mi sipna to'eki'unai lo nu do cladu}, but does not say {mi sipna} is true or not. Conclusion. {ki'u} is reasonable in affirmative sentence or out of the scope of negation; it may allow unusual interpretations in the scope of negation. {to'eki'u} is reasonable in the scope of negation; it may allow unusual interpretations in affirmative sentence or out of the scope of negation. Supposing my understanding is correct, we should be careful in reforming 2-1-2 {naku X to'eki'u lo nu Y} into the forms with {i to'eki'u bo} and {to'eki'u gi ... gi}: {zo'u} is indispensable for {i to'eki'u bo} in order to let the scope of {naku} span over {to'eki'u}. Forms corresponding to each other: naku X to'eki'u lo nu Y naku zo'u X .i to'eki'u bo Y naku to'eki'u gi Y gi X Example: naku mi sipna to'eki'u lo nu do cladu .i naku zo'u mi sipna .i to'eki'u bo do cladu .i naku to'eki'u gi do cladu gi mi sipna re'i -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "BPFK" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_7743_909106399.1431502997101 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
We have agreement on the meanings of compounds of cau= sation sumtcita.
http://mw.lojban.org/papri/BPFK_Section:_Causati= on_sumtcita#Impact

ri'a =3D=3D with cause
ri'anai =3D=3D not with cause (regardless of cause)
to'eri'a = =3D=3D prevented by
to'eri'anai =3D=3D not prevented by (despite)=

However, the page includes neither examples nor d= etailed explanations for the cases of {to'e...}.

I= think of preparing another page for that purpose, but I need your opinion = especially on my understanding about {to'eki'u}, {to'emu'i}, {to'eni'i}, {t= o'eri'a} as well as {to'eseja'e}.
I think they are meaningful onl= y in the scope of negation.

For example, let's exa= mine the following sentences.

1. Lojban sentences for "I give= up sleeping because of your loud noise."

1-1. {ki'u} in affi= rmative sentence.
{mi radycru lo nu sipna kei ki'u lo nu do cladu}
I give u= p sleeping because of your loud noise.
Reasonable.

1-2. {to'e= ki'u} in affirmative sentence.
{mi radycru lo nu sipna kei to'eki'u lo nu d= o cladu}
I give up sleeping prevented by your loud noise.
It may signify "Y= our loud noise prevents me from giving up sleeping, still 'I give up sleepi= ng' is true."
Unusual.


2. Lojban sentences for= "I don't sleep because of your loud noise."

2-1-1= . {ki'u} in= the scope of {naku}.
{naku mi sipna ki'u lo nu do cladu}
"I sleep because = of your loud noise" is false.
It may signify:
-1. "The reason for my sleepi= ng is not your loud noise," [1] or,
-2. "I don't sleep; if I were sleeping,= the reason for my sleeping would be your loud noise."
Both interpretations= are unusual.

2-1-2. {to'eki'u} in the scope of {naku}.
=
{naku= mi sipna to'eki'u lo nu do cladu}
"I sleep prevented by your loud noise" i= s false.
It may signify:
-1. "Something that prevents my sleeping is not yo= ur loud noise," [2] or,
-2. "Your loud noise prevents me from sleeping, and= 'I sleep' is false."
Both interpretations are reasonable.

2-2-1. {ki'u} out of the scope of {naku}.
{ki'u lo nu do cladu kei naku mi si= pna}
Because of your loud noise, "I sleep" is false.
Reasonable.

2-2-2. {to'eki'u} out of the scope of {naku}.
{to'eki'u lo nu do cladu= kei naku mi sipna}
Prevented by your loud noise, "I sleep" is false.
=
It ma= y signify "Your loud noise prevents me from no-sleeping, still 'I don't sle= ep' is true."
Unusual.


Notes.
=
[1] The interpretation 2-1-1-1 includes the meaning of {mi sipna ki'un= ai lo nu do cladu}, but does not say {mi sipna} is true or not.
[= 2] The interpretation 2-1-2-1 includes the meaning of {mi sipna to'eki'unai= lo nu do cladu}, but does not say {mi sipna} is true or not.

Conclusion.
{ki'u} is reasonable in af= firmative sentence or out of the scope of negation; it may allow unusual in= terpretations in the scope of negation.
{to'eki'u} is reasonable = in the scope of negation; it may allow unusual interpretations in affirmati= ve sentence or out of the scope of negation.


<= /div>
Supposing my understanding is correct, we should be careful in re= forming 2-1-2 {naku X to'eki'u lo nu Y} into the forms with {i to'eki'u bo}= and {to'eki'u gi ... gi}: {zo'u} is indispensable for {i to'eki'u bo} in o= rder to let the scope of {naku} span over {to'eki'u}.

<= div>Forms corresponding to each other:

naku X to'e= ki'u lo nu Y
naku zo'u X .i to'eki'u bo Y
naku to'eki'u= gi Y gi X

Example:

naku = mi sipna to'eki'u lo nu do cladu
.i
naku zo'u mi sipna = .i to'eki'u bo do cladu
.i
naku to'eki'u gi do cladu gi= mi sipna


re'i

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