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[2a00:1450:400c:c05::233]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k10si526280wia.1.2015.05.28.07.56.30 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 28 May 2015 07:56:30 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::233 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::233; Received: by mail-wi0-x233.google.com with SMTP id w1so65629956wif.0 for ; Thu, 28 May 2015 07:56:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.180.81.200 with SMTP id c8mr60443072wiy.49.1432824990434; Thu, 28 May 2015 07:56:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.221.167 with HTTP; Thu, 28 May 2015 07:56:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <55647BCD.8060008@gmail.com> <55661E01.8030707@gmail.com> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 17:56:09 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bpfk] Lojban word definitions style guidelines To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d043bdb08948aad051725901d X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::233 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bpfk-list@googlegroups.com; contact bpfk-list+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 972099695765 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_bar: - Content-Length: 17249 --f46d043bdb08948aad051725901d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2015-05-28 17:47 GMT+03:00 Alex Burka : > > > > On May 28, 2015 at 2:07:38 AM, Gleki Arxokuna (gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com= ) > wrote: > > Some of those guidelines would be better implemented by extending JVS db > model. Also if we put variable types in brackets then nothing else should > be in brackets. > Similarly, examples aren't supported by JVS 1.0 in a nice way. > Also while creating my dictionary I used "glosswords" to reflect English > nouns. Using a separate field to gloss gismu as verbs would also be nice. > > not a necessary distinction in Lojban > In Lojban no. For searching in the English-Lojban dictionary it's however useful. Otherwise people don't understand that {mlatu} is not "cat" but "x1 is a cat" and forget {lo}. > Also etymology somewhat contradicts my proposal: > https://github.com/lojban/jbovlaste/issues/131 where we have etymology > only in Lojban whereas for the other languages they can be generated by > third party software like those that produce printable dictionaries. > > Uh, what are they generating from, then? > As I understood in this proposal for every language there is a separate entry with etymology. All such entries can be autogenerated from Lojban one. > > > 2015-05-27 22:41 GMT+03:00 Ilmen : > >> coi ro do >> >> A couple of weeks ago, Naours (aka Xelan) suggested to make an official >> set of style guidelines for Lojban word definitions, in order to have >> definitions that look better and have a consistent style across the >> dictionary. >> >> Those guidelines would also aim at reducing the use of slashes '/' in >> definitions, favoring the use of the gloss fields for listing natural >> language equivalent words or expressions. The rational for this is that >> slashes make definitions more clunky and less pretty, and the result can= be >> awkward in languages with inflectional agreements. >> >> Below is Naours' proposal, translated from French and slightly >> modified/adjusted by me (hopefully without misrepresenting the idea of i= ts >> author). >> >> mu'o mi'e la .ilmen. >> >> =E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92= =E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2= =88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88= =92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92= =E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92 >> >> *Propositions:* >> >> *** Most important points: >> *=E2=86=92* Each definition must have a clear description. Slashes '/' s= hould be >> avoided as much as possible, as they hinder comprehension and make >> definitions look awkward. >> *=E2=86=92* Each definition must have a simple description: the descript= ion is >> written using simple terms, even if that leads to more verbosity. >> *=E2=86=92* Each definition must have a description as generic as possib= le: only >> one term per concept, as generic as possible for encompassing the other >> appropriate terms. >> *=E2=86=92* Every terms corresponding to the described concept are recor= ded in >> the gloss fields. >> *=E2=86=92* The etymologies are presented along with the definition in o= rder to >> retain the term and its origin. >> *=E2=86=92* The various sumti types must be specified between parenthese= s: >> =E2=80=94 Proposition (bridi abstractor - lo du'u) >> =E2=80=94 Event (action or state; event abstractor - lo nu) >> =E2=80=94 Property/dimension (property abstractor - lo ka) >> =E2=80=94 Quantity (quantity abstractor - lo ni) >> >> *** Points that may need to be further discussed: >> *=E2=86=92* The sumti are described using singular definite articles. >> >> *Expected results example:* >> >> balni (gimsu) >> Description: x1 is a platform overhanging on facade x2 >> Gloss: {balcony, overhang, ledge, shelf} >> Exemple 1: >> (English): This is a balcony >> (Lojban): ti balni >> Exemple 2: >> (English): The balcony of this building >> (Lojban): lo balni be lo vi dinju >> Etymology: >> Chinese: iantai >> English: balkani >> Hindi: baramda >> Spanish: balkon >> Russian: balkon >> Arabic: curfa >> Notes: >> >> Some points are rather advanced, and it will maybe be necessary to >> modify/improve/remove them. >> >> mu'o mi'e la .na'urs. >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "BPFK" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "BPFK" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "BPFK" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= BPFK" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --f46d043bdb08948aad051725901d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2015-05-28 17:47 GMT+03:00 Alex Burka <durka42@gmail.com>:


=

On May 28, 2015 at 2:07:38 AM, Gleki Arxokuna = (gleki.is.m= y.name@gmail.com) wrote:

Some of those guidelin= es would be better implemented by extending JVS db model. Also if we put va= riable types in brackets then nothing else should be in brackets.
Simil= arly, examples aren't supported by JVS 1.0 in a nice way.
Als= o while creating my dictionary I used "glosswords" to reflect Eng= lish nouns. Using a separate field to gloss gismu as verbs would also be ni= ce.

not a necess= ary distinction in Lojban

In Lojban no. Fo= r searching in the English-Lojban dictionary it's however useful. Other= wise people don't understand that {mlatu} is not "cat" but &q= uot;x1 is a cat" and forget {lo}.


<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Also etymology somewhat contradicts my proposal:=C2=A0https://github.co= m/lojban/jbovlaste/issues/131=C2=A0where we have etymology= only in Lojban whereas for the other languages they can be generated by th= ird party software like those that produce printable dictionaries.

Uh, what are they = generating from, then?

As I understood in this p= roposal for every language there is a separate entry with etymology. All su= ch entries can be autogenerated from Lojban one.=C2=A0

=
=


2015-05-27 22:41 GMT+03:00 Ilmen=C2=A0<= ;ilmen.pokebip= @gmail.com>:
coi ro do

A couple of weeks ago, Naours (aka Xela= n) suggested to make an official set of style guidelines for Lojban word de= finitions, in order to have definitions that look better and have a consist= ent style across the dictionary.

Those guidelines would also aim at = reducing the use of slashes '/' in definitions, favoring the use of= the gloss fields for listing natural language equivalent words or expressi= ons. The rational for this is that slashes make definitions more clunky and= less pretty, and the result can be awkward in languages with inflectional = agreements.

Below is Naours' proposal, translated from French an= d slightly modified/adjusted by me (hopefully without misrepresenting the i= dea of its author).

mu'o mi'e la .ilmen.

=E2=88=92=E2= =88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88= =92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92= =E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2= =88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88=92=E2=88= =92=E2=88=92

Propositions:

*=C2=A0= Most important points:
=E2=86=92=C2=A0Each de= finition must have a clear description. Slashes '/' should be avoid= ed as much as possible, as they hinder comprehension and make definitions l= ook awkward.
=E2=86=92=C2=A0Each definition must hav= e a simple description: the description is written using simple terms, even= if that leads to more verbosity.
=E2=86=92=C2=A0Eac= h definition must have a description as generic as possible: only one term = per concept, as generic as possible for encompassing the other appropriate = terms.
=E2=86=92=C2=A0Every terms corresponding to t= he described concept are recorded in the gloss fields.
=E2=86=92<= span>=C2=A0The etymologies are presented along with the definition i= n order to retain the term and its origin.
=E2=86=92=C2=A0<= /span>The various sumti types must be specified between parentheses:
=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=94 Proposition (bridi abstractor - lo du'u)
= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=94 Event (action or state; event abstractor - lo = nu)
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=94 Property/dimension (property abstractor= - lo ka)
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=94 Quantity (quantity abstractor - l= o ni)

*=C2=A0Points that may need to be further = discussed:
=E2=86=92=C2=A0The sumti are described us= ing singular definite articles.

Expected results example:<= /b>

balni (gimsu)
Description: x1 is a platform overhanging on fa= cade x2
Gloss: {balcony, overhang, ledge, shelf}
Exemple 1:
=C2=A0= (English): This is a balcony
=C2=A0 (Lojban): ti balni
Exemple 2:=C2=A0 (English): The balcony of this building
=C2=A0 (Lojban): lo baln= i be lo vi dinju
Etymology:
=C2=A0 Chinese: iantai
=C2=A0 English:= balkani
=C2=A0 Hindi: baramda
=C2=A0 Spanish: balkon
=C2=A0 Russi= an: balkon
=C2=A0 Arabic: curfa
Notes:

Some points are rather = advanced, and it will maybe be necessary to modify/improve/remove them.
=
mu'o mi'e la .na'urs.

=

--
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To unsubsc= ribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to=C2=A0bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to = this group, send email to=C2=A0bpfk-list@googlegroups.com.
Visit t= his group at=C2=A0http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list.For more options, visit=C2=A0https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
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= To post to this group, send email to=C2=A0bpfk-list@googlegroups.com.=
Visit this group at=C2=A0http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-l= ist.
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For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
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