Received: from mail-la0-f60.google.com ([209.85.215.60]:32960) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1YsRT9-00071a-LU; Wed, 13 May 2015 00:52:48 -0700 Received: by labgd6 with SMTP id gd6sf12605472lab.0; Wed, 13 May 2015 00:52:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=MCWC4OXFbYYka44WhzX7R1ca6U/rC9Ddg8hwxZD2Flc=; b=waqQbofreUEmH4f31fNyIdwCMvBt4xyHYFPvIx0Q9JI+mvle2XUFHwboehBjlShIwu Oqgqf5fR+xjkm+FdaKVsenvz+1GtQi4s5bKIGraezlZwz/BzvYOlPpyw+70MEWOkkkZM A2RGBFoX/HhdhUjnisIF7Dsm71K6FwbsYNa5TEEZVr3zN/T2xhuRMapuVYdVg03dPQHr 4LwSnDxWBlQ5TUDnE00i2NhTNaILyIr7EKCDGjHBNglVKAm9W5uQf3oWqrnU/Eq9TWt8 HB5jH5Q+hphdb+241ZUVtqtolXRKZVMV4sDGW7zv+V6wsCM13Dps/oNFbM7YmDtrn1tT bmNA== X-Received: by 10.152.3.38 with SMTP id 6mr254989laz.27.1431503556365; Wed, 13 May 2015 00:52:36 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.6.73 with SMTP id y9ls162235lay.1.gmail; Wed, 13 May 2015 00:52:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.112.29.39 with SMTP id g7mr13430560lbh.1.1431503555803; Wed, 13 May 2015 00:52:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x22a.google.com (mail-wg0-x22a.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c00::22a]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q10si235611wiz.0.2015.05.13.00.52.35 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 13 May 2015 00:52:35 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::22a as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c00::22a; Received: by mail-wg0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id d10so31429775wgn.2 for ; Wed, 13 May 2015 00:52:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.180.84.201 with SMTP id b9mr11724118wiz.49.1431503555676; Wed, 13 May 2015 00:52:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.221.167 with HTTP; Wed, 13 May 2015 00:52:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <49b0aba3-35fe-4edc-baed-9fe82afda84c@googlegroups.com> References: <49b0aba3-35fe-4edc-baed-9fe82afda84c@googlegroups.com> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 10:52:15 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bpfk] to'e and causation sumtcita compounds To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d04428750ee4ec40515f1e427 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::22a as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bpfk-list@googlegroups.com; contact bpfk-list+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 972099695765 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - Content-Length: 15163 --f46d04428750ee4ec40515f1e427 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2015-05-13 10:43 GMT+03:00 guskant : > We have agreement on the meanings of compounds of causation sumtcita. > http://mw.lojban.org/papri/BPFK_Section:_Causation_sumtcita#Impact > > ri'a == with cause > ri'anai == not with cause (regardless of cause) > to'eri'a == prevented by > to'eri'anai == not prevented by (despite) > Interesting that this page expands -nai to {na'e} where is another page http://mw.lojban.org/papri/move_NAI_to_CAI#NAI_and_tags expands to {na}. > However, the page includes neither examples nor detailed explanations for > the cases of {to'e...}. > > I think of preparing another page for that purpose, but I need your > opinion especially on my understanding about {to'eki'u}, {to'emu'i}, > {to'eni'i}, {to'eri'a} as well as {to'eseja'e}. > I think they are meaningful only in the scope of negation. > > For example, let's examine the following sentences. > > 1. Lojban sentences for "I give up sleeping because of your loud noise." > > 1-1. {ki'u} in affirmative sentence. > {mi radycru lo nu sipna kei ki'u lo nu do cladu} > I give up sleeping because of your loud noise. > Reasonable. > > 1-2. {to'eki'u} in affirmative sentence. > {mi radycru lo nu sipna kei to'eki'u lo nu do cladu} > I give up sleeping prevented by your loud noise. > It may signify "Your loud noise prevents me from giving up sleeping, still > 'I give up sleeping' is true." > Unusual. > > > 2. Lojban sentences for "I don't sleep because of your loud noise." > > 2-1-1. {ki'u} in the scope of {naku}. > {naku mi sipna ki'u lo nu do cladu} > "I sleep because of your loud noise" is false. > It may signify: > -1. "The reason for my sleeping is not your loud noise," [1] or, > -2. "I don't sleep; if I were sleeping, the reason for my sleeping would > be your loud noise." > Both interpretations are unusual. > > 2-1-2. {to'eki'u} in the scope of {naku}. > {naku mi sipna to'eki'u lo nu do cladu} > "I sleep prevented by your loud noise" is false. > It may signify: > -1. "Something that prevents my sleeping is not your loud noise," [2] or, > -2. "Your loud noise prevents me from sleeping, and 'I sleep' is false." > Both interpretations are reasonable. > > 2-2-1. {ki'u} out of the scope of {naku}. > {ki'u lo nu do cladu kei naku mi sipna} > Because of your loud noise, "I sleep" is false. > Reasonable. > > 2-2-2. {to'eki'u} out of the scope of {naku}. > {to'eki'u lo nu do cladu kei naku mi sipna} > Prevented by your loud noise, "I sleep" is false. > It may signify "Your loud noise prevents me from no-sleeping, still 'I > don't sleep' is true." > Unusual. > > > Notes. > [1] The interpretation 2-1-1-1 includes the meaning of {mi sipna ki'unai > lo nu do cladu}, but does not say {mi sipna} is true or not. > [2] The interpretation 2-1-2-1 includes the meaning of {mi sipna > to'eki'unai lo nu do cladu}, but does not say {mi sipna} is true or not. > > > Conclusion. > {ki'u} is reasonable in affirmative sentence or out of the scope of > negation; it may allow unusual interpretations in the scope of negation. > {to'eki'u} is reasonable in the scope of negation; it may allow unusual > interpretations in affirmative sentence or out of the scope of negation. > > > Supposing my understanding is correct, we should be careful in reforming > 2-1-2 {naku X to'eki'u lo nu Y} into the forms with {i to'eki'u bo} and > {to'eki'u gi ... gi}: {zo'u} is indispensable for {i to'eki'u bo} in order > to let the scope of {naku} span over {to'eki'u}. > > Forms corresponding to each other: > > naku X to'eki'u lo nu Y > naku zo'u X .i to'eki'u bo Y > naku to'eki'u gi Y gi X > > Example: > > naku mi sipna to'eki'u lo nu do cladu > .i > naku zo'u mi sipna .i to'eki'u bo do cladu > .i > naku to'eki'u gi do cladu gi mi sipna > > > re'i > I think these to'e TAG can/should be also explained in terms of the scales of the underlying brivla. What is {to'e krinu}? Of course, this is just a question of translating into natlangs. I dont mean explaining {to'e krinu} with some other Lojban words. P.S. I noticed that I don't like yet another thread in English (although I know that I always did this myself in past). Can we finally start shutting down English in BPFK threads except when paedagogical explanations for English speakers and/or CLL work are needed? -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "BPFK" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "BPFK" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --f46d04428750ee4ec40515f1e427 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2015-05-13 10:43 GMT+03:00 guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com><= /span>:
We have agreement on the = meanings of compounds of causation sumtcita.
http://mw.lojban.org/papri/BPFK_Section:_Causation_sumtcita#Impact

ri'a =3D=3D with cause
ri'anai =3D= =3D not with cause (regardless of cause)
to'eri'a =3D=3D = prevented by
to'eri'anai =3D=3D not prevented by (despite= )

Interesting that this page ex= pands -nai to {na'e} where is another page http://mw.lojban.org/papri/move_NAI= _to_CAI#NAI_and_tags expands to {na}.


However, the page includes neither= examples nor detailed explanations for the cases of {to'e...}.

I think of preparing another page for that purpose, but I= need your opinion especially on my understanding about {to'eki'u},= {to'emu'i}, {to'eni'i}, {to'eri'a} as well as {to&= #39;eseja'e}.
I think they are meaningful only in the scope o= f negation.

For example, let's examine the fol= lowing sentences.

1. Lojban sentences for "I give up sleeping because of you= r loud noise."

1-1. {ki'u} in affirmative sentence.
{mi radycru lo nu sipna kei ki'u lo = nu do cladu}
I give = up sleeping because of your loud noise.
Reasonable.

1-2. {to'eki'u} in affirmative sentence.<= /div>
{mi radycru lo nu si= pna kei to'eki'u lo nu do cladu}
I give up sleeping prevented by your loud noise.
=
It may signify "Your= loud noise prevents me from giving up sleeping, still 'I give up sleep= ing' is true."
Unusual.


2. Lojban sentences for "I don't sleep becau= se of your loud noise."

2-1-1. {ki'u} in the scope of {naku}.
= {naku mi sipna ki'u lo nu = do cladu}
"I sl= eep because of your loud noise" is false.
It may signify:
-1. "The reason for my sleeping is not your lou= d noise," [1] or,
-2. "I don't sleep; if I were sleeping, the reason for my sleep= ing would be your loud noise."
Both interpretations are unusual.

= 2-1-2. {to'eki'u} in th= e scope of {naku}.
{= naku mi sipna to'eki'u lo nu do cladu}
"I sleep prevented by your loud noise"= is false.
It may si= gnify:
-1. "Som= ething that prevents my sleeping is not your loud noise," [2] or,
-2. "Your loud nois= e prevents me from sleeping, and 'I sleep' is false."
Both interpretations are rea= sonable.

2-2-1. {ki'u} out of the scope of {naku}.
{ki'u lo nu do cladu kei naku mi sipna}
Because of your loud n= oise, "I sleep" is false.
Reasonable.

2-2-2. {to'eki'u} out of the scope of {naku}.=
{to'eki'u l= o nu do cladu kei naku mi sipna}
Prevented by your loud noise, "I sleep" is false.
It may signify "Y= our loud noise prevents me from no-sleeping, still 'I don't sleep&#= 39; is true."
U= nusual.


Notes.
[1] The in= terpretation 2-1-1-1 includes the meaning of {mi sipna ki'unai lo nu do= cladu}, but does not say {mi sipna} is true or not.
[2] The inte= rpretation 2-1-2-1 includes the meaning of {mi sipna to'eki'unai lo= nu do cladu}, but does not say {mi sipna} is true or not.


Conclusion.
{ki'u} is reasonable in a= ffirmative sentence or out of the scope of negation; it may allow unusual i= nterpretations in the scope of negation.
{to'eki'u} is re= asonable in the scope of negation; it may allow unusual interpretations in = affirmative sentence or out of the scope of negation.

<= div>
Supposing my understanding is correct, we should be care= ful in reforming 2-1-2 {naku X to'eki'u lo nu Y} into the forms wit= h {i to'eki'u bo} and {to'eki'u gi ... gi}: {zo'u} is i= ndispensable for {i to'eki'u bo} in order to let the scope of {naku= } span over {to'eki'u}.

Forms correspondin= g to each other:

naku X to'eki'u lo nu Y
naku zo'u X .i to'eki'u bo Y
naku to'eki= 'u gi Y gi X

Example:

naku mi sipna to'eki'u lo nu do cladu
.i
naku = zo'u mi sipna .i to'eki'u bo do cladu
.i
na= ku to'eki'u gi do cladu gi mi sipna


re'i

I think these= to'e TAG can/should be also explained in terms of the scales of the un= derlying brivla. What is {to'e krinu}? Of course, this is just a questi= on of translating into natlangs. I dont mean explaining {to'e krinu} wi= th some other Lojban words.

P.S. I noticed that I = don't like yet another thread in English (although I know that I always= did this myself in past). Can we finally start shutting down English in BP= FK threads except when paedagogical explanations for English speakers and/o= r CLL work are needed?

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;BPFK" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;BPFK" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bpfk-list= +unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at ht= tp://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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