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[2a00:1450:400c:c05::22d]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id da3si1353691wib.1.2015.07.08.00.59.24 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 08 Jul 2015 00:59:24 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22d as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::22d; Received: by mail-wi0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id jy10so209280261wid.1 for ; Wed, 08 Jul 2015 00:59:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.194.205.225 with SMTP id lj1mr16396209wjc.138.1436342364718; Wed, 08 Jul 2015 00:59:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.221.167 with HTTP; Wed, 8 Jul 2015 00:58:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <2619578.SDvdWZmG6y@caracal> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2015 10:58:45 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bpfk] Re: Alternatives to {bo} in {i ... bo}? To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bd6b9e46ccd89051a588411 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22d as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bpfk-list@googlegroups.com; contact bpfk-list+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 972099695765 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - Content-Length: 9783 --047d7bd6b9e46ccd89051a588411 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2015-07-08 10:22 GMT+03:00 guskant : > > > Le mercredi 8 juillet 2015 06:22:00 UTC, la durka a =C3=A9crit : >> >> >> iku'i e'uru'e >> I would rather simply add "jo'au zantufa xi pire", because this parser >> supports left-association of BO (though {ku} or {cu} become necessary af= ter >> {la CMEVLA} because it supports also cmevla as tanru unit): >> >> http://guskant.github.io/gerna_cipra/zantufa-0.2.html >> >> ([CU {broda VAU}] [i ca bo {CU }] [i {te zu'e} bo {CU > VAU>}]) >> >> -- >> >> >> Any reason you think it should change from right- to left-grouping? I >> mean, we just have to pick one and stick with it. Also, in your parse it >> looks like there's no grouping at all... >> >> >> mu'o mi'e durkavore >> > > > First, left-grouping is the same as most of other grouping rules of Lojba= n. > For example, a string of tanru units is read as left-grouping: > ((broda brode) brodi) > ((broda ja brode) ja brodi) > I rather don't understand why only BO and CO should support right-groupin= g > among many other connectives. > > Secondly, just the same problem as la piier raised. When I first wrote a > logical proof on "individuals" in Lojban, I should first mention "these > BO-s are regarded as left-grouping": > broda > iseni'ibo > brode > iseni'ibo > brodi > .... > Right grouping of BO is very annoying for me. > > We see no grouping at all on the parsing tree. It's the same thing for > JA-connection or simple string of tanru units: > http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/camxes.html > ([broda {ja brode} {ja brodi}] VAU) > > I guess it is because of PEG's characteristic (na'e birti). I heard about > left-recursion problem of PEG. PEG first parses a string like > > broda brode brodi brodo > as > (broda (brode (brodi brodo))). > > We should therefore modify the grouping after parsing. > Grouping of JA-connectives is ugly. Not [only] that they group to the right but this sumti_3 =3D sumti_4 (joik_ek stag? BO_clause free* sumti_3)?) is what I completely disagree with. Node must couple either with another node of the same level or with newly created constructs. Thus sumti_4 mustn't be linked with its parent node sumti_3 as its sibling node. Scoping, precedence and 'embedding clauses into clauses' are all smashed into one type of brackets in PEG which makes the real structure somewhat unclear. A solution without providing any technical mechanism was proposed here: https://github.com/Ilmen-vodhr/ilmentufa/issues/116 > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "BPFK" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= BPFK" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --047d7bd6b9e46ccd89051a588411 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2015-07-08 10:22 GMT+03:00 guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com><= /span>:


Le mercredi 8 juillet = 2015 06:22:00 UTC, la durka a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:

iku'i e'uru'e=C2=A0
I would = rather simply add "jo'au zantufa xi pire", because this parse= r supports left-association of BO (though {ku} or {cu} become necessary aft= er {la CMEVLA} because it supports also cmevla as tanru unit):

([CU {broda VAU}] [i ca bo {= CU <brode VAU>}] [i {te zu'e} bo {CU <brodo VAU>}])
=C2=A0
--


Any reason you think it should change from right- to left-grouping? I= mean, we just have to pick one and stick with it. Also, in your parse it l= ooks like there's no grouping at all...


mu'o mi= 9;e durkavore



First, left-grouping is the same as most of other grouping rules o= f Lojban.
For example, a string of tanru units is read as left-gr= ouping:
((broda brode) brodi)
((broda ja brode) ja brod= i)
I rather don't understand why only BO and CO should suppor= t right-grouping among many other connectives.

Sec= ondly, just the same problem as la piier raised. When I first wrote a logic= al proof on "individuals" in Lojban, I should first mention "= ;these BO-s are regarded as left-grouping":
broda
= iseni'ibo
brode
iseni'ibo
brodi
=
....
Right grouping of BO is very annoying for me.

We see no grouping at all on the parsing tree. It's the= same thing for JA-connection or simple string of tanru units:
http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/ilmentufa/camxes.html
= ([broda {ja brode} {ja brodi}] VAU)=C2=A0

I guess = it is because of PEG's characteristic (na'e birti). I heard about l= eft-recursion problem of PEG. PEG first parses a string like

=
broda brode brodi brodo
=C2=A0as=C2=A0
(brod= a (brode (brodi brodo))).

We should therefore modi= fy the grouping after parsing.

Groupi= ng of JA-connectives is ugly. Not [only] that they group to the right but t= his
sumti_3 =3D sumti_4 (joik_ek stag? BO_clause free* sumti= _3)?)

is what I completely disagree with. No= de must couple either with another node of the same level or with newly cre= ated constructs. Thus sumti_4 mustn't be linked with its parent node su= mti_3 as its sibling node.
Scoping, precedence and 'embedding= clauses into clauses' are all smashed into one type of brackets in PEG= which makes the real structure somewhat unclear.

= A solution without providing any technical mechanism was proposed here:=C2= =A0https://= github.com/Ilmen-vodhr/ilmentufa/issues/116

= =C2=A0

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Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list.
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--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;BPFK" group.
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