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[2a00:1450:4010:c07::231]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id y6si533372wmg.0.2016.09.26.05.20.28 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 26 Sep 2016 05:20:28 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c07::231 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c07::231; Received: by mail-lf0-x231.google.com with SMTP id g62so138995604lfe.3 for ; Mon, 26 Sep 2016 05:20:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.25.7.213 with SMTP id 204mr7524488lfh.119.1474892427851; Mon, 26 Sep 2016 05:20:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.25.23.206 with HTTP; Mon, 26 Sep 2016 05:19:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2016 15:19:47 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: [bpfk] ma smuni zo frumu To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113eb5403e82e9053d682718 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c07::231 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bpfk-list@googlegroups.com; contact bpfk-list+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: bpfk-list@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 972099695765 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_bar: - Content-Length: 13139 --001a113eb5403e82e9053d682718 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 i eipei mi fanva ro la'e di'e lo lojbo i pe'i nandu gi'u cumki lai .krtis.: http://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.co.uk/2016/09/frowns.html?m=1 Is this the U.S. American "frown" primarily of a downturned mouth and which usually means negative emotions? Or is it the British sense of just a furrowed brow (forehead), which can mean all sorts of things, including negative ones but also (but not limited too): a reaction to pain (possibly covered in the Usian sense too, as a grimace), concentration, a questioning look, a prompting look, or surprise. My reading is the U.S. sense. It says "frown/grimace"; while both senses can encapsulate this meaning, the U.S. sense does so exclusively, making it a better match. Additionally, mebri could be used for the British sense (in lujvo). Now, badri could be used for the U.S. sense, but it may not cover all forms of grimacing. But I am a Usian, so I might be biased. In any case, how should we say the other sense or specific meanings? (Possibly confer: corci). ---- la gleki: .i coi la lojbab. As Curtis noted the U.S. American "frown" primarily means a downturned mouth and usually means negative emotions. The British sense is just a furrowed brow (forehead), which can mean all sorts of things, including negative ones but also (but not limited too): a reaction to pain (possibly covered in the Usian sense too, as a grimace), concentration, a questioning look, a prompting look, or surprise. So what was meant by {frumu} or should we stick to "grimace" reading more, that is any facial expression would do? ---- la lojbab.: I suspect that grimace would work, since it an alternative to frown in the definition. Until I looked them up (see below), I would have thought grimace to be a synonym of frown. But that seems not to be the case. I don't know the answer to this for sure. Since the question is one of various meanings in different languages/cultures, it is probably best to look at the source words that were used to make frumu. mukti scanned the original worksheets when he was last here. I don't know if he put them online yet. Actually I think we put the etymology summary file up a while back. But the original sheets will identify the words we used in word-making that did NOT make it into the final etymology. Thinking about it, I probably had in mind "frown" as the opposite expression to "smile", which would fit what Curtis called the American version. But I think that the American definition also includes the furrowed brow as well as the downturned mouth, and could therefore include concentration and disapproval as well as sadness. Hmm. http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/frown http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/grimace allows you to look at the British and American definitions in comparison. There is some difference, but I think I would have frumu cover both the American and British meanings of both words. Broader is better for gismu, especially if we can find a way to make simple lujvo to distinguish between kinds of frumu. drifru for a sad frown; na'efru for a denial/disapproval frown, jurfru and jusfru for the to-me subtle difference between a serious expression and a severe one (subtle in that I couldn't tell you the difference in the facial expressions for each). So that is what I would propose - that frumu be a kind of basket of non-smiling facial expressions, not necessarily for a negative emotion, with lujvo bringing out the various possible kinds of emotion/attitude being expressed. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "BPFK" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bpfk-list+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a113eb5403e82e9053d682718 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
i eipei mi fanva ro la'e di'e lo lojbo i pe'i nandu gi'= u cumki

lai .krtis.:
http://separatedbyaco= mmonlanguage.blogspot.co.uk/2016/09/frowns.html?m=3D1

=
= Is this the U.S. American "frown" primarily of a downturned mouth= and which
usually means negative emotions? Or is it the British sens= e of just a=C2=A0
furrowed brow (forehead), which can mean all sorts = of things, including=C2=A0
= negative ones but also (but not limited to= o): a reaction to pain (possibly=C2=A0
covered in the Usian sense to= o, as a grimace), concentration, a questioning
look, a prompting look= , or surprise.

= My reading is the U.S. sense. It says &quo= t;frown/grimace"; while both senses=C2=A0
can encapsulate this m= eaning, the U.S. sense does so exclusively, making it
a better match.= Additionally, mebri could be used for the British sense=C2=A0
(in lu= jvo). Now, badri could be used for the U.S. sense, but it may not=C2=A0
cover all forms of grimacing.

But I am a Usian, so I mi= ght be biased.

= In any case, how should we say the other s= ense or specific meanings?=C2=A0
(Possibly confer: corci).

---= -

la gleki:
.i coi la lojbab.
As Curtis noted=C2= =A0
the U.S. American= "frown" primarily means a downturned mouth and=C2=A0
usually means negative emotions.= =C2=A0

The British sense is just a fu= rrowed brow (forehead), which can mean all sorts of things, including negat= ive ones but also (but not limited too): a reaction to pain (possibly=C2=A0=
covered in the Usian= sense too, as a grimace), concentration, a questioning
look, a prompting look, or surprise.

So what was meant by {frumu} or should w= e stick to "grimace" reading more, that is any facial expression = would do?

<= div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12.8px">----

la lojbab.:
I suspect that grimace would work, since it an alt= ernative to frown in the definition.=C2=A0 Until I looked them up (see belo= w), I would have thought grimace to be a synonym of frown.=C2=A0 But that s= eems not to be the case.

I don't know the answer to th= is for sure.

Since the question is one of various meanings= in different languages/cultures, it is probably best to look at the source= words that were used to make frumu. =C2=A0mukti scanned the original works= heets when he was last here.=C2=A0 I don't know if he put them online y= et.=C2=A0 Actually I think we put the etymology summary file up a while bac= k.=C2=A0 But the original sheets will identify the words we used in word-ma= king that did NOT make it into the final etymology.

Thinki= ng about it, I probably had in mind "frown" as the opposite expre= ssion to "smile", which would fit what Curtis called the American= version.=C2=A0 But I think that the American definition also includes the = furrowed brow as well as the downturned mouth, and could therefore include = concentration and disapproval as well as sadness.
<= font color=3D"#000000">
<= /div>
Hmm.
http:/= /dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/grimace

allows you to look at the British and American definitions in comparison.= =C2=A0 There is some difference, but I think I would have frumu cover both = the American and British meanings of both words.

Broader i= s better for gismu, especially if we can find a way to make simple lujvo to= distinguish between kinds of frumu. drifru for a sad frown; na'efru fo= r a denial/disapproval frown, jurfru and jusfru for the to-me subtle differ= ence between a serious expression and a severe one (subtle in that I couldn= 't tell you the difference in the facial expressions for each).=C2=A0 S= o that is what I would propose - that frumu be a kind of basket of non-smil= ing facial expressions, not necessarily for a negative emotion, with lujvo = bringing out the various possible kinds of emotion/attitude being expressed= .

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;BPFK" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bpfk-list= +unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to bpfk-list@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at h= ttps://groups.google.com/group/bpfk-list.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--001a113eb5403e82e9053d682718--