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From: Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 16:02:36 +0300
Message-ID: <CAO7bV+i-X6Vw9aCkBU3zFkWbUEEt-9WuCHLC1z5SKhZoDy54Jg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [bpfk] Officially updating "Complete Lojban Language" grammar
 book. An official LLG proposal passed. Your help needed.
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On Wed, Aug 14, 2019, 3:57 PM Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:

> On 8/14/2019 8:12 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 14, 2019, 15:08 Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org
> > <mailto:lojbab@lojban.org>> wrote:
> >
> >     On 8/7/2019 6:31 PM, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas wrote:
> >      >
> >      >     It is suggested to replace:
> >      >         It is illegal to add a hyphen at a place that is not
> >     required by
> >      >     this
> >      >         algorithm.
> >      >     with:
> >      >         It is possible to optionally add an y-hyphen between the
> >      >     consonants of any
> >      >         permissible consonant pair e.g. for stylistic purposes o=
r
> for
> >      >     the ease of
> >      >         pronunciation.
> >      >
> >      >
> >      > I don't have the full context, but I assume the "y" would be
> >     permitted
> >      > betwen the consonants of adjacent rafsi, and not between the
> >     consonants
> >      > of any consonant pair at all, otherwise the morphology gets
> >     broken ("to
> >      > smabru" cannot be pronounced "to symabru" for example).
> >
> >
> >     My opinion, for what it is worth (I don't have a veto), is that if
> this
> >     is an actual change to the morphology as it was defined fora couple
> of
> >     decades, then the fact that Jorge has to raise such questions means
> >     that
> >     the proposal was not specified completely enough to be properly
> >     debated,
> >     much less decided.
> >
> >     Especially knowing that Jorge could read any recorded
> >     discussion/proposal in Lojban, unlike many of the rest of us
> (including
> >     Nora who did much of the later work and explication of morphology
> >     issues).
> >
> >     I also don't recall any mention of this as a proposal approved by
> byfy,
> >     and reported to the members or the Board by the byfy jatna
> >
> >     This proposal should not be incorporated into CLL without a proper
> >     documentation, discussion and decision.
> >
> >
> >
> > What entity should discuss it?
>
> In the absence of a byfy or equivalent/replacement, there is no entity
> other than the Board (or members during a meeting) that can or should
> approve ANY change to the language.  That was the state before byfy, and
> again is the state until it is replaced.
>

Ok


> But if course, if I am correct that it wasn't properly discussed, then
> it can and should wait for an organization to be properly constituted (I
> won't pretend to understand the convoluted mess that passed during the
> meeting, but I had the impression that said approved proposal would in
> face require formally documented proposals before they are decided).
>
> Certainly this proposal is NOT merely the correction of an error in the
> original CLL, and if not formally approved.


True

  My understanding is that
> the update to CLL is not supposed to be changing anything that wasn't
> part of the original language (and erroneously described) or some
> language change proposal that was approved by byfy before it was
> disconstituted.
>
> Remember that I personally don't support language changes *in general*
> unless they are fixing something broken, though I can only control my
> own vote, such as it is.
>

This change is already vetoed by me in llg members mattermost channel. It
has poor wording as xorxes noted.

But in general the idea to allow superfluous y was from Cowan.


> lojbab
>
> --
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> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bpfk-list/99b607e0-27c6-7f13-8a32-1b498=
e18c0e6%40lojban.org
> .
>

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<div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Aug 14, 2019, 3:57 PM Bob LeChevalier &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:lojbab@lojban.org">lojbab@lojban.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On 8/14/2019 8:12 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:<=
br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On Wed, Aug 14, 2019, 15:08 Bob LeChevalier &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lojb=
ab@lojban.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">lojbab@lojban.org</a> <=
br>
&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lojbab@lojban.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=
=3D"noreferrer">lojbab@lojban.org</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 8/7/2019 6:31 PM, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas wrote:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0It is suggested to replace=
:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0It is illega=
l to add a hyphen at a place that is not<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0required by<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0algorithm.<b=
r>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0with:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0It is possib=
le to optionally add an y-hyphen between the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0consonants of any<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0permissible =
consonant pair e.g. for stylistic purposes or for<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the ease of<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0pronunciatio=
n.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; I don&#39;t have the full context, but I assu=
me the &quot;y&quot; would be<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0permitted<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; betwen the consonants of adjacent rafsi, and =
not between the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0consonants<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; of any consonant pair at all, otherwise the m=
orphology gets<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0broken (&quot;to<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; smabru&quot; cannot be pronounced &quot;to sy=
mabru&quot; for example).<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0My opinion, for what it is worth (I don&#39;t have =
a veto), is that if this<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0is an actual change to the morphology as it was def=
ined fora couple of<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0decades, then the fact that Jorge has to raise such=
 questions means<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the proposal was not specified completely enough to=
 be properly<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0debated,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0much less decided.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Especially knowing that Jorge could read any record=
ed<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0discussion/proposal in Lojban, unlike many of the r=
est of us (including<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Nora who did much of the later work and explication=
 of morphology<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0issues).<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I also don&#39;t recall any mention of this as a pr=
oposal approved by byfy,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and reported to the members or the Board by the byf=
y jatna<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This proposal should not be incorporated into CLL w=
ithout a proper<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0documentation, discussion and decision. <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; What entity should discuss it?<br>
<br>
In the absence of a byfy or equivalent/replacement, there is no entity <br>
other than the Board (or members during a meeting) that can or should <br>
approve ANY change to the language.=C2=A0 That was the state before byfy, a=
nd <br>
again is the state until it is replaced.<br></blockquote></div></div><div d=
ir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Ok</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div=
><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex=
">
<br>
But if course, if I am correct that it wasn&#39;t properly discussed, then =
<br>
it can and should wait for an organization to be properly constituted (I <b=
r>
won&#39;t pretend to understand the convoluted mess that passed during the =
<br>
meeting, but I had the impression that said approved proposal would in <br>
face require formally documented proposals before they are decided).<br>
<br>
Certainly this proposal is NOT merely the correction of an error in the <br=
>
original CLL, and if not formally approved.</blockquote></div></div><div di=
r=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">True</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></di=
v><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x">=C2=A0 My understanding is that <br>
the update to CLL is not supposed to be changing anything that wasn&#39;t <=
br>
part of the original language (and erroneously described) or some <br>
language change proposal that was approved by byfy before it was <br>
disconstituted.<br>
<br>
Remember that I personally don&#39;t support language changes *in general* =
<br>
unless they are fixing something broken, though I can only control my <br>
own vote, such as it is.<br></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br>=
</div><div dir=3D"auto">This change is already vetoed by me in llg members =
mattermost channel. It has poor wording as xorxes noted.</div><div dir=3D"a=
uto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">But in general the idea to allow superfluo=
us y was from Cowan.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
lojbab<br>
<br>
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</blockquote></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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