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Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 05:30:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
To: BPFK <bpfk-list@googlegroups.com>
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 <dc0b6ba7-4554-4c8c-9505-9f1d60962d06@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [bpfk] Re: Officially updating "Complete Lojban Language" grammar
 book. An official LLG proposal passed. Your help needed.
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So here is the list of veto votes. Please, inform me if Iforgot to include=
=20
any other veto votes.

https://mw.lojban.org/papri/CLL_1.2._Technical


Em s=C3=A1bado, 29 de junho de 2019 11:39:14 UTC+3, la gleki escreveu:
>
> Notice, the proposal passed on June 26, 2019 at 2:38 am UTC therefore the=
=20
> two-month period ends on August 26, 2019 at 238 UTC.
>
> Em quarta-feira, 26 de junho de 2019 13:36:19 UTC+3, la gleki escreveu:
>>
>> LLG needs your feedback on updating the reference grammar of Lojban. If=
=20
>> you are a fluent speaker of Lojban or a member of LLG please share your=
=20
>> feedback (in case you are a fluent speaker please reply in Lojban +=20
>> optionally in English). Notice: your publicly visible ID, nickname, emai=
l=20
>> will be recorded for future reference by LLG.
>>
>> The document=20
>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7AqdjlT=
isxIaiw/edit# contains=20
>> a list of proposed changes. Text with green background denotes additions=
 to=20
>> the text, text with red background denotes deletions from the text.
>>
>> If you are not a fluent speaker still please have a look at the document=
=20
>> and share your thoughts.
>>
>> Here is the full text of the proposal passed at the meeting of the=20
>> Logical Language Group and published at=20
>> https://framateam.org/signup_user_complete/?id=3D17b4ir6u6by6px693dm8kmy=
7yw in=20
>> "LLG Members Meeting 2018" channel:
>> ----
>> Veto mode of updating CLL:
>> Premises: CLL should be updated quickly. Many mistypes were recorded 15=
=20
>> years ago or more. 2.5 years ago we were technically ready to merge them=
=20
>> into the text of CLL. But still no updates to CLL
>> Proposed solution in short: a one-time job with most hard work delegated=
=20
>> to Gleki, with minimum possible effort from anyone else. Gleki asks LLG=
=20
>> voting members, John W. Cowan, the author of the first edition of CLL, a=
nd=20
>> fluent speakers if a collection of mistypes is okay or not and after=20
>> getting the feedback compiles a new version of CLL and presents it to LL=
G=20
>> for verification and approval.
>> Proposed solution in detail:
>> the document=20
>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7AqdjlT=
isxIaiw/edit# contains=20
>> a list of proposed changes. Text with green background  denotes addition=
s=20
>> to the text, text with red background denotes deletions from the text.
>>
>> Any voting member of LLG or John W. Cowan, the author of the first=20
>> edition of CLL, and any fluent speaker of Lojban can veto any of these=
=20
>> changes by naming each of vetoed changes individually. In case a fluent=
=20
>> speaker vetoes a change this vetoing must be done in Lojban and optional=
ly=20
>> in English by providing reasons why this change should not be applied. I=
n=20
>> case a voting member of LLG or John W. Cowan vetoes a change the member =
or=20
>> John W. Cowan must provide in English their reasons why this change shou=
ld=20
>> not be applied. The replier must be informed beforehand that their repli=
es=20
>> with their publicly visible IDs, names, nicknames will be publicly logge=
d=20
>> by LLG for future reference.
>> Who is "fluent speaker of Lojban"? Any person who can speak grammaticall=
y=20
>> correct Lojban and who can be understood by any LLG member who is a flue=
nt=20
>> speaker too. Veto mode minimizes possible scenarios when such a fluent=
=20
>> speaker disagrees with a change to CLL but some malicious person pretend=
s=20
>> that he/she/ze/they don't understand that a veto was made. In  such case=
s=20
>> any other LLG member or fluent speaker can translate the veto or even ve=
to=20
>> a change themselves instead of that person.
>>
>> Changes are either vetoed or not. No change to the document is allowed=
=20
>> (which means in future new documents may appear for amended changes but =
for=20
>> this one-time job the document is final)
>> LLG waits for 2 months since the adoption of this proposal for any veto=
=20
>> votes.
>> In 2 months in case at least one non-vetoed change is left LLG announces=
=20
>> that changes are ready to be merged and delegates Gleki the right to mer=
ge=20
>> exactly non-vetoed changes with exactly the changes provided in the=20
>> document into CLL version 1.1 thus turning it into CLL version 1.2, and =
put=20
>> a duty on Gleki to produce within one month pdf, epub,mobi, html version=
s=20
>> of CLL 1.2 and within 6 months to produce (accepting help from Robin Lee=
=20
>> Powell if provided) a paper version of CLL 1.2 using either existing LLG=
=20
>> account on Amazon or creating a new account but providing the Treasurer =
and=20
>> the President with all the credentials to such new Amazon account.
>> Once Gleki produces a new electronic version of CLL 1.2 he is obliged to=
=20
>> immediately present it to LLG for official approval.
>> LLG approves or rejects the resulting electronic candidate CLL versions.
>> Approving the paper version of CLL 1.2 is out of the scope of this=20
>> proposal (should physical copies of CLL 1.2 be sent to all LLG members?=
=20
>> Highly unlikely and hasn't been done ever as far as i know)
>>
>> le ve cusku (means of transferring veto replies): in case of LLG member=
=20
>> this chat is okay. In case of fluent Lojban speakers any publicly logged=
=20
>> and accessible to any LLG member means of communication is okay. Among=
=20
>> those are:
>>
>> #lojban, #ckule,#jbosnu Freenode IRC channels.
>> https://www.facebook.com/groups/lojban/
>> this Framateam Mattermost channel
>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/lojban
>> any page of mw.lojban.org
>> Non-formal procedures: anyone is encouraged to publish this proposal=20
>> wherever allowed once this proposal passes.
>>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>So here is the list of veto votes. Please, inform me =
if Iforgot to include any other veto votes.</div><div><br></div><div>https:=
//mw.lojban.org/papri/CLL_1.2._Technical</div><div><br></div><br>Em s=C3=A1=
bado, 29 de junho de 2019 11:39:14 UTC+3, la gleki  escreveu:<blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px =
#ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr">Notice, the proposal passed=
 on June 26, 2019 at 2:38 am UTC therefore the two-month period ends on Aug=
ust 26, 2019 at 238 UTC.<br><br>Em quarta-feira, 26 de junho de 2019 13:36:=
19 UTC+3, la gleki  escreveu:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div>LLG needs your feedback on updating the reference grammar o=
f Lojban. If you are a fluent speaker of Lojban or a member of LLG please s=
hare your feedback (in case you are a fluent speaker please reply in Lojban=
 + optionally in English). Notice: your publicly visible ID, nickname, emai=
l will be recorded for future reference by LLG.</div><div><br></div><div><d=
iv>The document=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TjgmRNR=
raQ_W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7AqdjlTisxIaiw/edit#" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_bla=
nk" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Tjg=
mRNRraQ_W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7AqdjlTisxIaiw/edit#&#39;;return true;" onclick=
=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_W76Eh9X=
JfstCOaAunb7AqdjlTisxIaiw/edit#&#39;;return true;">https://docs.google.<wbr=
>com/document/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_<wbr>W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7AqdjlTisxIa<wbr>iw/edit=
#</a>=C2=A0contains a list of proposed changes. Text with green background =
denotes additions to the text, text with red background denotes deletions f=
rom the text.</div><div><br></div></div><div>If you are not a fluent speake=
r still please have a look at the document and share your thoughts.</div><d=
iv><br></div>Here is the full text of the proposal passed at the meeting of=
 the Logical Language Group and published at=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://framat=
eam.org/signup_user_complete/?id=3D17b4ir6u6by6px693dm8kmy7yw" rel=3D"nofol=
low" target=3D"_blank" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://www.google.c=
om/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fframateam.org%2Fsignup_user_complete%2F%3Fid%3D17=
b4ir6u6by6px693dm8kmy7yw\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFOIBm5O5uW=
IwgQXARzvVxrk8Tnpg&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://w=
ww.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fframateam.org%2Fsignup_user_complete%2=
F%3Fid%3D17b4ir6u6by6px693dm8kmy7yw\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjC=
NFOIBm5O5uWIwgQXARzvVxrk8Tnpg&#39;;return true;">https://framateam.org/<wbr=
>signup_user_complete/?id=3D<wbr>17b4ir6u6by6px693dm8kmy7yw</a>=C2=A0in &qu=
ot;LLG Members Meeting 2018&quot; channel:<div>----</div><div><div>Veto mod=
e of updating CLL:</div><div>Premises: CLL should be updated quickly. Many =
mistypes were recorded 15 years ago or more. 2.5 years ago we were technica=
lly ready to merge them into the text of CLL. But still no updates to CLL</=
div><div>Proposed solution in short: a one-time job with most hard work del=
egated to Gleki, with minimum possible effort from anyone else. Gleki asks =
LLG voting members, John W. Cowan, the author of the first edition of CLL, =
and fluent speakers if a collection of mistypes is okay or not and after ge=
tting the feedback compiles a new version of CLL and presents it to LLG for=
 verification and approval.</div><div>Proposed solution in detail:</div><di=
v>the document=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TjgmRNRr=
aQ_W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7AqdjlTisxIaiw/edit#" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blan=
k" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Tjgm=
RNRraQ_W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7AqdjlTisxIaiw/edit#&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D=
"this.href=3D&#39;https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_W76Eh9XJfs=
tCOaAunb7AqdjlTisxIaiw/edit#&#39;;return true;">https://docs.google.<wbr>co=
m/document/d/1TjgmRNRraQ_<wbr>W76Eh9XJfstCOaAunb7AqdjlTisxIa<wbr>iw/edit#</=
a>=C2=A0contains a list of proposed changes. Text with green background=C2=
=A0 denotes additions to the text, text with red background denotes deletio=
ns from the text.</div><div><br></div><div>Any voting member of LLG or John=
 W. Cowan, the author of the first edition of CLL, and any fluent speaker o=
f Lojban can veto any of these changes by naming each of vetoed changes ind=
ividually. In case a fluent speaker vetoes a change this vetoing must be do=
ne in Lojban and optionally in English by providing reasons why this change=
 should not be applied. In case a voting member of LLG or John W. Cowan vet=
oes a change the member or John W. Cowan must provide in English their reas=
ons why this change should not be applied. The replier must be informed bef=
orehand that their replies with their publicly visible IDs, names, nickname=
s will be publicly logged by LLG for future reference.</div><div>Who is &qu=
ot;fluent speaker of Lojban&quot;? Any person who can speak grammatically c=
orrect Lojban and who can be understood by any LLG member who is a fluent s=
peaker too. Veto mode minimizes possible scenarios when such a fluent speak=
er disagrees with a change to CLL but some malicious person pretends that h=
e/she/ze/they don&#39;t understand that a veto was made. In=C2=A0 such case=
s any other LLG member or fluent speaker can translate the veto or even vet=
o a change themselves instead of that person.</div><div><br></div><div>Chan=
ges are either vetoed or not. No change to the document is allowed (which m=
eans in future new documents may appear for amended changes but for this on=
e-time job the document is final)</div><div>LLG waits for 2 months since th=
e adoption of this proposal for any veto votes.</div><div>In 2 months in ca=
se at least one non-vetoed change is left LLG announces that changes are re=
ady to be merged and delegates Gleki the right to merge exactly non-vetoed =
changes with exactly the changes provided in the document into CLL version =
1.1 thus turning it into CLL version 1.2, and put a duty on Gleki to produc=
e within one month pdf, epub,mobi, html versions of CLL 1.2 and within 6 mo=
nths to produce (accepting help from Robin Lee Powell if provided) a paper =
version of CLL 1.2 using either existing LLG account on Amazon or creating =
a new account but providing the Treasurer and the President with all the cr=
edentials to such new Amazon account.</div><div>Once Gleki produces a new e=
lectronic version of CLL 1.2 he is obliged to immediately present it to LLG=
 for official approval.</div><div>LLG approves or rejects the resulting ele=
ctronic candidate CLL versions.</div><div>Approving the paper version of CL=
L 1.2 is out of the scope of this proposal (should physical copies of CLL 1=
.2 be sent to all LLG members? Highly unlikely and hasn&#39;t been done eve=
r as far as i know)</div><div><br></div><div>le ve cusku (means of transfer=
ring veto replies): in case of LLG member this chat is okay. In case of flu=
ent Lojban speakers any publicly logged and accessible to any LLG member me=
ans of communication is okay. Among those are:</div><div><br></div><div>#lo=
jban, #ckule,#jbosnu Freenode IRC channels.</div><div><a href=3D"https://ww=
w.facebook.com/groups/lojban/" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" onmousedo=
wn=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.fa=
cebook.com%2Fgroups%2Flojban%2F\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFcX=
ATVr7bjusexRy0tKRO31qQygQ&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;ht=
tps://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fgroups%2Floj=
ban%2F\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFcXATVr7bjusexRy0tKRO31qQygQ=
&#39;;return true;">https://www.facebook.com/<wbr>groups/lojban/</a></div><=
div>this Framateam Mattermost channel</div><div><a href=3D"https://groups.g=
oogle.com/forum/#!topic/lojban" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" onmoused=
own=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/lojban&#39;=
;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://groups.google.com/forum/=
#!topic/lojban&#39;;return true;">https://groups.google.com/<wbr>forum/#!to=
pic/lojban</a></div><div>any page of=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://mw.lojban.org/"=
 rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;http://=
www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fmw.lojban.org%2F\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3=
d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNHUUvMRPbL1u-PAUd_H2DqPG6qEnA&#39;;return true;" onclick=
=3D"this.href=3D&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fmw.lojban.=
org%2F\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNHUUvMRPbL1u-PAUd_H2DqPG6qEnA=
&#39;;return true;">mw.lojban.org</a></div><div>Non-formal procedures: anyo=
ne is encouraged to publish this proposal wherever allowed once this propos=
al passes.</div></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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