Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 12:11:23 +0100
Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: ti, ta, tu for people?
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From: Jan Pilgenroeder <pille@mac.com>
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Am Mittwoch, 19.02.03 um 09:08 Uhr schrieb Philip Newton:

> coi rodo

coi filip.

> Is it correct to use ti, ta, tu for people?

Why should ti, ta, tu not be used for people? You can point at people 
and say "this person", "that person" and "and the person way over 
there". I guess you feel bad about this because you were raised in 
culture that teaches its children not to point at people.

"Man zeigt nicht mit nackten Fingern auf angezogene Leute!". I'm sure 
you at least heard that from other children when you where young. And 
even parents who don't use this stupid phrase caution their kids not to 
openly point at people.

> And then I wondered how to express that in Lojban. My first thought was
> {mu'i ma ta katna le jimca}, but I wasn't sure whether it was proper to
> use {ta} for people.
>
> {ko'a} is, presumably, wrong since it hasn't been bound yet (or would
> it automatically be bound to the "nearest logical thing" or something
> like that?). And {le va prenu} seems a bit long if it can be avoided.
>
> (Hm, looking at the gi'uste, perhaps {ta ka'argau fi le jimca} is
> better than {ta katna le jimca} when the subject is a person.)

{mu'i ma ta katna le jimca} does not link the motive specifically to 
{ta} but it links it to the selbri. You observe that a branch is cut by 
a cutting tool and ask for the motivation that causes this to happen. 
So this sentence expresses the same question as {ma mukti lenu ta katka 
le jimca kei zo'e}. And I think you did not really want to know about 
the personal motives of the people who wield the cutting tools you are 
pointing at (they might tell you that they really prefer uncut trees 
but need the money), but you wanted to know about a more abstract 
reason.  You probably want to get an answer like {leka cumki daspo 
nalseltro selfa'u le jimca}.

Your sentence may sound pretty weird when you translate it to german or 
english, but It seems to be good lojban to me.

I actually like the Zen-like sound of this. It reminds me of this Zen 
Koan that asks "Who is the master that makes the grass green?"

Bye,
    Jan.

--
Jan Pilgenroeder
Theaterstr. 59
52062 Aachen