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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 19:09:47 -0500
To: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org
From: Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org>
Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: precise definition of cmene
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At 08:27 AM 2/27/04 -0600, Adam D. Lopresto wrote:
>On Thu, 26 Feb 2004, Scott Weller wrote:
> > One of the finer rules of cmene constuction says that a cmene cannot 
> contain
> > (among a few other things) the element 'la'.  If we allowed 'la
> > labrydor.rytrivyr' there would be ambiguity as to whether that might really
> > be 'la la brydor.rytrivyr' (whatever that might mean).
>
>Ok, this has been bugging me for a long time, but I might as well 
>ask.  What is
>the ambiguity this presents?  As I understand it, "la cmen" is grammatically a
>sumti, while "cmen" is is a cmene.  Where could there possibly be confusion?
>Where can either one be acceptable?  What would "la la brydor.rytrivr.' mean?
>Every time the "no la/lai/doi in cmene" rule pops up, I try to figure out its
>purpose, and I always fail and feel stupid.  Can someone enlighten me?

Among other things, because people use names other than in complete sentences.

ma se gerku ta
What breed is that (dog)

The person answers
labrydor.rytrivr.

(which is grammatical by itself, if not syntactically a sumti).

Is that to be heard as spoken, or as
la brydor.rytrivr.
?

A better example: the famous mathematician  Pierre LaPlace

la pi,er.laplas. cu cmaci certu
Pierre LaPlace (was) a mathematical-expert.

looks correct, but it would be heard as
la pi,er. la plas. cu cmaci certu
which is syntactically equivalent to
la pi,er cu cmaci certu la plas.
Pierre is a mathematical expert in the subject of Plas (whatever that 
subject is).

The answer is therefore that SOMETIMES a "la" in a name causes no problem, 
because given immediate context, we can disambiguate it, or simply because 
we know the name from a non-Lojbanic context.  But there are sometimes when 
"la" and the others cause problems.  Rather than instituting a complex rule 
that says you can use it under this, that, and the other condition, we 
imposed the broad rule that is easy to learn (though not always easy to 
practice because we don't pay attention, even the most skilled Lojbanists 
sometimes slip a name with a la in there once in a while).

Over the decades, people have disagreed with the rule, and proposed various 
alternative rules to solve the problem.  None has caught on enough to be 
considered.

lojbab

-- 
lojbab                                             lojbab@lojban.org
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:                 http://www.lojban.org