From: GREGORY DYKE <gregory.dyke@epfl.ch>
To: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org
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Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 17:58:24 +0100
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Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Question around beginner's chapter 4
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salud dit yannig


> Hello,
> 
> I'd like some explanation on the existence of, and difference 
> between, the 
> following bridi :

In CLL, you may notice: 

"A full theory of sumti-based descriptions has yet to be worked out"

I will first introduce the implicit quantifiers, then expand "lo", and lastly give my translation: 

> 
> .i le ci le gerku cu blabi
ro le ci le su'o gerku cu blabi
...
all of the three ones I mean of those at least one things I'm going to call dogs are white.
 
> .i le ci lo gerku cu blabi
ro le ci lo ro gerku cu blabi
roda poi gerku zu'o ci ro le ci da cu blabi

Consider all the things which are dogs:
all of the three ones I mean of those are white.

> .i lo ci lo gerku cu blabi
> .i lo ci le gerku cu blabi

errr... I have no idea what a sumti-based description which has lo as its outside gadri can expand to

the difference between the first two is clear:

1) I'm calling some things dogs, work out from context which ones I mean. There are three of them, which you can also figure out which three I'm talking about. All of these three are white.

2) Consider all dogs. I'm talking about 3 of them, figure out from context which ones I mean. All of these three are white.

3)??????? equivalent to stating that there are only 3 dogs in the world and selecting at least one of them: su'o lo ci gerku...

4)this could maybe mean:
I'm calling some things dogs, work out from context which ones I mean. If you did your working out correctly, you will notice that there are exactly three of them. at least one of these is white.

I'm not sure how this differs from
su'o le ci gerku cu blabi

> 
> Also, it is mentioned in "the complete lojban language", p. 132, 
> section 
> 8, that on can omit "lo" e.g. "ci lo gerku" => "ci gerku". So am I 
> right 
> to conclude that "le ci gerku" is in fact the same as "le ci lo 
> gerku" ?

I don't own CLL, but I would surmise that the answer to your question is to be found in section 9 and the rest of the chapter.

all gadri have internal and external gadri. 

ci gerku = ci lo ro gerku
le ci gerku = ro le ci gerku
le ci lo gerku = le ci lo ro gerku

If it works like your conclusion, we would have

*ci gerku = ci lo gerku
          = ci lo ro gerku
          = ci lo ro lo gerku
          = ci lo ro lo ro gerku
          = ...

which is clearly not correct

Greg