Message-ID: <20041104231344.40199.qmail@web41902.mail.yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:13:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Jorge "Llambías" <jjllambias2000@yahoo.com.ar>
Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Question around beginner's chapter 4
To: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org
In-Reply-To: <20041104223016.GF25376@chain.digitalkingdom.org>
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--- Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 04, 2004 at 01:40:43PM -0800, Jorge Llamb?as wrote:
> > The other combinations are also not much used, but possible. {lo
> > ci le gerku} is three of the dogs, but not necessarily three
> > specific ones that I have in mind.
> > 
> > {lo ci lo gerku} is just three dogs. Indistinguishable from {lo ci
> > gerku} if we don't require the inner quantifier to be all the dogs
> > that there are in the world.
> > 
> > {le ci lo gerku} is the three dogs I have in mind.
> > Indistinguishable, from {le ci gerku} as far as I can tell.
> 
> *CAREFUL*!
> 
> xorlo isn't final yet, you know!

I tried to be careful because of that, that's why I said "if", 
but you're right, I forgot about the outer su'o. In CLL
{lo ci lo gerku} is {su'o lo ci lo gerku}.

> To the original poster: the interpretation based above is
> provisional; we are still working out the details.  The strict CLL
> interpretation is:
> 
> lo ci le gerku == Any of the three things that really are things
> that may or may not be dogs and that you have in mind.  Note that
> this says that there are *only* three such things in the universe
> (which in this case isn't *too* bad).

Not "any of the three" but "at least one of the three": it may
be one, two or the three of them that are white. In CLL {lo}
does not refer, it just quantifies.

> lo ci lo gerku == Any of the three things that really are dogs;
> there are only three.  As xorxes says, equivalent to lo ci gerku.

In CLL, not equivalent. It's "at least one of some three out of
all that there are". The intermediate {ci} is almost vacuous here,
except that it implies that there must be least three dogs in 
existance. If at least one out of all dogs is white, and there 
are at least three dogs, then there will be some three such that 
at least one of those three is white.

mu'o mi'e xorxes


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