Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Sun, 27 Mar 2005 04:59:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.44) id 1DFXMu-0001E3-19 for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Sun, 27 Mar 2005 04:59:52 -0800 Received: from rproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.170.201]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.44) id 1DFXMk-0001Dr-DE for lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org; Sun, 27 Mar 2005 04:59:50 -0800 Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id z35so1480709rne for ; Sun, 27 Mar 2005 04:59:41 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=k88eK8sEq/1CcMGef/zMVli35Cchvp9uI3zyxLnKxcDb40xmBaWrBbMI0F8oMYKwFeHwkP6LiId9q/GJSJrWsG/XsLP2+licApv4iT2GrQXc6No+bNnhm56zMNczxIBi2enJsN4eSdgg6UkSz5thRxF9hJu9qZImpuEL8bCkwYU= Received: by 10.38.11.32 with SMTP id 32mr1651000rnk; Sun, 27 Mar 2005 04:59:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.208.61 with HTTP; Sun, 27 Mar 2005 04:59:41 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <537d06d00503270459208b78f3@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 14:59:41 +0200 From: Philip Newton To: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: z and s In-Reply-To: <424506C8.3070305@calpoly.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <424506C8.3070305@calpoly.edu> X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-archive-position: 1338 X-Approved-By: philip.newton@gmail.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-original-sender: philip.newton@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-list: lojban-beginners Content-Length: 967 On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 22:52:56 -0800, Brandon Wirick wrote: > It's a pretty simple concept: with voiced > consonants, your vocal chords move and make noise; with unvoiced > consonants, they don't. .ie > In English, voice accounts for all the > significant difference between 's' and 'z', 'p' and 'b', 't' and 'd', > 'k' and hard 'g', 'ch' and 'j', etc. Hope that helps. .ienai Voice is a salient feature for the difference between those sounds, but I'd say that it's not "all the significant difference" -- vowel length also plays a part. In general, vowels before voiced consonants are held significantly longer than before unvoiced consonants -- compare yourself saying "bus" and "buzz", "cap" and "cab", "pat" and "pad", "back" and "bag", "larch" and "large" --, and this is probably one thing that lets you understand even whispered speech, which has no voice distinctions. mu'o mi'e .filip. -- Philip Newton