Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Thu, 22 Sep 2005 07:53:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1EISRe-0002pS-9W for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Thu, 22 Sep 2005 07:53:06 -0700 Received: from zproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.162.200]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1EISRc-0002pD-LJ for lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org; Thu, 22 Sep 2005 07:53:06 -0700 Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id s1so239888nze for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2005 07:53:03 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=ExTXM+pql6ewFKHNH1Be9+qjhxqGsHe9rqLsP2OyH6toN9cvpv88srLMqSARxR/rhaCCvXrTwwlIDK/eokgMPL/Pd3MRrgQXXJ3rY783qtFHdJLGTHNwatzdc7fRu/nYQL8snsmXGwK3dJqLKi4O/Mym/0l411kanBXyjBJxPrM= Received: by 10.54.52.70 with SMTP id z70mr183475wrz; Thu, 22 Sep 2005 07:53:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.142.3 with HTTP; Thu, 22 Sep 2005 07:53:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 10:53:03 -0400 From: Matt Arnold To: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Just got my speakers back online... In-Reply-To: <1127366913.8652.6.camel@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_7460_28563889.1127400783674" References: <4332366C.2040704@hypermetrics.com> <1127366913.8652.6.camel@localhost> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-archive-position: 2243 X-Approved-By: matt.mattarn@gmail.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-original-sender: matt.mattarn@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-list: lojban-beginners Content-Length: 7031 ------=_Part_7460_28563889.1127400783674 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On 9/22/05, Theodore Reed wrote: > > On Wed, 2005-09-21 at 23:43 -0500, Hal Fulton wrote: > > So naturally one of the first things I did was go hear > > the podcast. :) > > > > I have no real complaints with the pronunciation. I think > > Matt's accent is fairly neutral -- believe me, I have > > heard all kinds of accents in the USA that are far heavier. > > > > I *thought* that he pronounced {gismu} a little off -- > > perhaps with an English short i, but I wasn't sure. > > I heard the same thing. > > > I had a minor nit with {detri}, mostly because of a high > > school speech teacher I had who was perhaps a little > > overzealous. > > > > It took me a while to get what she was arguing, but in > > the end I was convinced. Most people I've mentioned it > > to are not convinced, so I won't be offended if you > > tell me I'm crazy. > > > > Say something like "tuck" to yourself. Notice how you > > manipulate your tongue on the t -- its initial position > > and its motion. In my case, it starts out hovering on > > that fleshy ridge behind the teeth, then it flicks away. > > > > Now say "truck" (as many/most Americans do). When I am > > not being careful, it's completely different. My tongue > > is curled backward, so that the tip is much farther back > > (perhaps almost an inch?). The tongue is pressed harder > > against the roof of the mouth, so that it makes much > > more contact in terms of surface area. Then the motion > > is a little slower because of the starting point and > > the curled state of the tongue. > > > > In short, the word "trot" we might render in Lojban > > as {trat} -- say it's a cmene or something. :) > > As far as I can tell, my tongue tip is in the same position for all of > these, but if there's a following r, the sides are tucked in a bit in > preparation for the r. > > > But what I/we really say is more like {tcrat}. > > And I'm pretty sure I don't say that. > > > When you say "trick" -- is the initial sound more like > > the beginning of "tick" or the beginning of "chick"? > > For many people, it's the latter. > > Not for me. > > > When I pronounce Lojban (which is only between me and the > > cat so far), I try to be more precise than I usually would > > in English. So I would pronounce {detri} less like {detcri} > > and more like I imagine my old Kuwaiti roommate would have > > done. > > > > My speech teacher was especially annoyed when a terminal t > > was followed by an initial y ("Don't you want to come?") > > and we would carelessly pronounce it something like "Doan > > chew want to come?" ("Stop 'chew'-ing," she would say.) > > Okay, this I know I do on occaision. > > > Well, enough on that. Getting back to the podcast -- yes, > > I liked it a lot. Well done, and keep them coming. > > > > > > Hal > > Hal, I am giving you an assignment. Please use Audacity or other software to record your comments about "t" and send it to me for inclusion in the podcast. -epkat ------=_Part_7460_28563889.1127400783674 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On 9/22/05, Theodore Reed <treed@surreality.us> wrote:
On Wed, 2005-09-21 at 23:43 -0500, Hal Fulton wrote:
> So naturally o= ne of the first things I did was go hear
> the podcast.  :)=
>
> I have no real complaints with the pronunciation. I think<= br>> Matt's accent is fairly neutral -- believe me, I have
> heard all kinds of accents in the USA that are far heavier.
>= ;
> I *thought* that he pronounced {gismu} a little off --
> pe= rhaps with an English short i, but I wasn't sure.

I heard the same t= hing.

> I had a minor nit with {detri}, mostly because of a high
&g= t; school speech teacher I had who was perhaps a little
> overzealous= .
>
> It took me a while to get what she was arguing, but in
> the end I was convinced. Most people I've mentioned it
> to = are not convinced, so I won't be offended if you
> tell me I'm crazy.=
>
> Say something like "tuck" to yourself. Notice ho= w you
> manipulate your tongue on the t -- its initial position
> an= d its motion. In my case, it starts out hovering on
> that fleshy rid= ge behind the teeth, then it flicks away.
>
> Now say "tru= ck" (as many/most Americans do). When I am
> not being careful, it's completely different. My tongue
> is= curled backward, so that the tip is much farther back
> (perhaps alm= ost an inch?). The tongue is pressed harder
> against the roof of the= mouth, so that it makes much
> more contact in terms of surface area. Then the motion
> is = a little slower because of the starting point and
> the curled state = of the tongue.
>
> In short, the word "trot" we might= render in Lojban
> as {trat} -- say it's a cmene or something. :)

As far as I = can tell, my tongue tip is in the same position for all of
these, but if= there's a following r, the sides are tucked in a bit in
preparation for= the r.

> But what I/we really say is more like {tcrat}.

And I'm = pretty sure I don't say that.

> When you say "trick" --= is the initial sound more like
> the beginning of "tick" o= r the beginning of "chick"?
> For many people, it's the latter.

Not for me.

> W= hen I pronounce Lojban (which is only between me and the
> cat so far= ), I try to be more precise than I usually would
> in English. So I w= ould pronounce {detri} less like {detcri}
> and more like I imagine my old Kuwaiti roommate would have
>= done.
>
> My speech teacher was especially annoyed when a term= inal t
> was followed by an initial y ("Don't you want to come?&= quot;)
> and we would carelessly pronounce it something like "Doan
= > chew want to come?" ("Stop 'chew'-ing," she would say.)=

Okay, this I know I do on occaision.

> Well, enough on th= at. Getting back to the podcast -- yes,
> I liked it a lot. Well done, and keep them coming.
>
>=
> Hal


Hal,
I am giving you an assignment. Please use Audacity or other software to record your comments about "t" and send it to me for inclusion in= the podcast.
-epkat ------=_Part_7460_28563889.1127400783674--