Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Sun, 25 Sep 2005 15:35:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1EJf64-0000qb-59 for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Sun, 25 Sep 2005 15:35:48 -0700 Received: from zproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.162.197]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1EJf62-0000qT-QG for lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org; Sun, 25 Sep 2005 15:35:47 -0700 Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id s1so135752nze for ; Sun, 25 Sep 2005 15:35:45 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=HrWaZ30eVzEhy2OU05AqeMdot61OFYg3lNF2utwKouC7ecTug203YgYxNhZXqeghY/D3rvFg5dAjM59trW5lYUQuwC0NrEkr43FAKZ0cVSEvbaOPR6Vw/T+M9+GvU7Vthc9Qhxc7x9Cy5UFIwQQsX8ulzm8yR2FGEnLBeeWSgFo= Received: by 10.54.114.17 with SMTP id m17mr990116wrc; Sun, 25 Sep 2005 15:35:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.142.3 with HTTP; Sun, 25 Sep 2005 15:35:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 18:35:45 -0400 From: Matt Arnold To: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: gendered and gender-neutral language In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_11270_5418048.1127687745006" References: <43336307.8020301@handgranat.org> <4333866A.1080803@handgranat.org> <2d3df92a050923080645081cb@mail.gmail.com> <433552C1.4050003@handgranat.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) X-archive-position: 2329 X-Approved-By: matt.mattarn@gmail.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-original-sender: matt.mattarn@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-list: lojban-beginners Content-Length: 5891 ------=_Part_11270_5418048.1127687745006 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On 9/25/05, Christopher Zervic wrote: > > On 9/24/05, Matt Arnold wrote: > > > On 9/24/05, Arnt Richard Johansen wrote: > > > > > > On Sat, 24 Sep 2005, Sunnan wrote: > > > > > > > Just for curiosity, what word would you use for a female parent who > > > didn't > > > > give birth? > > > > > > mamta. > > > > > > mamta mam mother 'mom' x1 is a > > > mother of x2; x1 bears/mothers/acts maternally toward x2; [not > > > necessarily > > > biological] > > > > > > What does it mean to act maternally? Unless we know this, we don't know > > what behavior the word specifies. > > > Is it to mean "parent whose behavior is, according to the speaker's > > opinions, stereotypical of women"? > > > Are the speaker and listener supposed to have an agreed-upon stereotype o= f > > women to understand this word? > > > > Has common sense completely checked out? > > Believe it or not in some cultures the mother and father assume different > roles. Mothers typically are more domestic because they have less physica= l > strength and hence are less equipped for taxing physical tasks. Note too > that fathers can't breast feed. This division is universal enough to > overcome political correctness. Who honestly is offended? > -- > Christopher Zervic, Esq. It's not about getting offended, it's about wanting to know what {mamta} means. Pregnancy and breast feeding are not "roles" because we can't assign them to each other-- they're biological. The definition clearly states {mamta} is not necessarily biological, so how can that come into it? The definition makes it a verb/adjective, "acting maternal," which is chosen behavior. So you're saying {mamta} means "x1 breast-feeding parent who tend= s to act domestic"? That means a lot of mothers I know are not {mamta} under the parameters you just gave. I just want to be clear. -epkat ------=_Part_11270_5418048.1127687745006 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On 9/25/05, Christopher Zervic <zervic@gmail.com> wrote:
On 9/24/05, Matt Arnold <matt.mattarn@gmail.com > wrote:
On 9/24/05, Arnt Richard Johansen &= lt;arj@nvg.org> wrote:
On Sat, 24 Sep 2005, Sunnan wrote:

> Just for curiosity, what wor= d would you use for a female parent who didn't
> give birth?

m= amta.

mamta mam          mother =             &nb= sp; 'mom'           &nbs= p;    x1 is a
mother of x2; x1 bears/mothers/acts maternally toward x2; [not nece= ssarily
biological]

 
What does it mean to act maternally? Unless we know this= , we don't know what behavior the word specifies.
Is it to mean "parent whose behavior is, according to the speak= er's opinions, stereotypical of women"?
Are the speaker and listener supposed to have an agreed-upon stereotype of = women to understand this word?

Has common sense completely checked out?

Believe it or not in some cultures the mother and father assume different roles. Mothers typically are more domestic because they have less physical strength and hence are less equipped for taxing physical tasks. Note too that fathers can't breast feed. This division is universal enough to overcome political correctness. Who honestly is offended?
--
Christopher Zervic, Esq.
It's not about getting offended, it's about wanting to know what {mamta} means. Pregnancy and breast feeding are not "roles" becau= se we can't assign them to each other-- they're biological. The definition clearly states {mamta} is not necessarily biological, so how can that come into it? The definition makes it a verb/adjective, "acting maternal," which is chosen behavior. So you're saying {mamta} means &q= uot;x1 breast-feeding parent who tends to act domestic"? That means a lot of mothers I know are not {mamta} under the parameters you just gave. I just want to be clear.
-epkat

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