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From: Alex Martini <alexjm@umich.edu>
Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: pronunciation
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 23:13:18 -0400
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On Jun 20, 2006, at 10:45 PM, Chris Capel wrote:

> On 6/20/06, Alex Martini <alexjm@umich.edu> wrote:
>> On Jun 20, 2006, at 7:39 PM, Chris Capel wrote:
>> > When I was in grade school, it took me a week or two of speech  
>> therapy
>> > to learn to pronounce the American "r" sound. Several years ago, it
>> > took me (an American) about a year to really learn to easily  
>> pronounce
>> > a Spanish "r". (A trill between the tip of the tongue and the  
>> back of
>> > the front teeth.) A few months ago, it took me about two days to  
>> learn
>> > the French "r", which is a uvular trill. (I'm not sure if the  
>> uvula is
>> > actually flapping around, or what.) It could be that the latter is
>> > easier to learn, or maybe I'm just better at producing strange  
>> sounds
>> > nowadays.
>
>> Unfortunately, the other half of this is that I spend & have spent a
>> lot of time getting to know the shape of my mouth in different
>> positions so this doesn't work for everyone. The other thing is to
>
> Well, would it be worth the effort to get to know the shape of one's
> mouth? To understand those various linguistic terms relevant to
> pronunciation? Language learners (with most curricula) already learn a
> lot more about the target language's grammar than any uneducated
> native speaker knows. Why not the same with pronunciation?
It's hard to say -- I find it useful to be able to name the sounds  
when thinking about them. I taught myself about 60% of what I know  
about mouth shaping, and the other 40% especially vowel structure I  
learned in an Intro to Linguistics class this past semester. If you  
have the opportunity to learn any of this in a classroom setting I  
would say that was very beneficial, although it would have been very  
much more challenging had I not played with sounds before. A good  
starting place is to simply organize the consonants of your native  
language into a table based on how they are articulated, and where.  
No cheating and looking at an IPA table though. After they're  
organized, then look at the table and find out the names for the  
characteristics.
>
>> listen to a recording of the sounds, and try to copy them. Between
>> myself and some other Lojbanists, I'm sure we can pull together a
>> recording of just about any sound you need.
>
> I don't personally have any problems currently, just thinking
> generally. (As I said, I was able to pick up a uvular trill in a
> couple days. The french "r" is often a uvular trill, and often a
> uvular frictive, right? The speakers on my tapes do both, and sound
> like they simply swallow it sometimes as well.)
I should stick in a note that, while I can fake my way through  
reading French most of the time I've never actually studied it so I  
know not much about the /r/ sound.
>
>> [ li'o ]
>>
>> I would bet {ml} as in {mlatu} does, as well as {jr} as in {bajra}
>> and {kt} from {cukta}. These types of pairs aren't allowed in
>> English, so they're a tricky to wrap the tongue around.
>
> Yes, I have a whole lot of trouble with {ml}. What does it sound like
> when correctly pronounced? Does one voice the "m" with closed lips,
> form the "l" with the tongue, and only then open the lips? That feels
> so unnatural, but it comes out sounding about right.
Try saying 'hemlock' in English - that {ml} is simmilar to the {ml}  
in {mlatu}. The difference is that hemlock has a longer {m} sound  
that's not really connected to the {l}. If you squish the two  
syllables down a little, you can say it more like {heh MLAHK} (using  
semi-phonetics) instead of the normal {HEHM lah}. The point is to  
make the m & l into the same syllable instead of being on opposite  
sides of the syllable break. From there, it's a short jump to {heh  
mlatu} and from there on to just plain {mlatu}. Another English word  
with this sound almost is omelet, but again they're across a syllable  
break from each other.

In answer to your description, pretty much that's how I say it. I  
position my tongue for /l/ while saying /m/, then open my mouth to  
say the /l/ and the following vowel.

[ li'o ]

mu'o mi'e .aleks.