Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Thu, 12 Oct 2006 17:41:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GYB6y-00059A-Av for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Thu, 12 Oct 2006 17:41:16 -0700 Received: from smtp.mail.umich.edu ([141.211.93.160] helo=skycaptain.mr.itd.umich.edu) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GYB6r-00058k-Lq for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 12 Oct 2006 17:41:16 -0700 Received: FROM [141.213.221.81] (bursley-221-81.reshall.umich.edu [141.213.221.81]) BY skycaptain.mr.itd.umich.edu ID 452EE066.9332D.16440 ; 12 Oct 2006 20:40:07 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: References: <9ea0266d0610120211gd3e5557p8dd2970b19f39571@mail.gmail.com> <537d06d00610120242g714cea4et4d7dbb72a630109@mail.gmail.com> <2C91E382-A66F-464D-969E-C8E4365765A2@umich.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis From: Alex Martini Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: problem Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 20:40:05 -0400 To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 3625 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: alexjm@umich.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners Content-Length: 3298 I've replayed both that clip and my 'long recording of vowels', and my xy does sometimes end up a little high, near y'y. As for the holoalphabetic sentence, this is what I hear when I listen to it (from jbocradi remo'o, for those who don't remember) .u'usai if I have misspelled names on here, as I am spelling from sound only. time - 4:31 Matt Arnold x with trill Theodore Reed x with slight trill - sound quality makes it hard to tell Christopher Zurvick x or h; very similar to his y'y Bruce Webber y'y and xy are nearly identical as h Pier Abatt x Hal Fulton x or X Adam Rizen x w/ slight trill Jorge Llambías x time - 5:30 Since I can't use IPA in email, X is the uvular. The lower, more uvular, trilled pronunciation is clearly much easier to differentiate from y'y than the higher x which sometimes IPA c-with-a-tail (the ch in German ich) when I say it. So the former is probably a better pronunciation. I'm still not convinced that there should be a trill with the xy though. I will try stop by my Linguistics prof's office hours in the next few days and see if she can pronounce the different sounds h, x, and X for me. It occurs to me that this perhaps we should move off the beginners list for a bit if we have a lot of discussion to do, and then report back to it on the results. mu'omi'e .aleks. On Oct 12, 2006, at 3:58 PM, Matt Arnold wrote: > I've played that sound clip a dozen times in a row, on headphones. For > the life of me, the left-channel sound which you say is correct sounds > like "h". The right channel sound with the trill I recognize as "x". > If I'm incorrect on this, then so are the Lojbanists who sent in > recordings of themselves to play on the podcast, reading the > holoalphabetic sentence. No one is going to confuse that sound for > another letter in Lojban, but they will mistake the sound you say is > correct, for "h". Every time. > > If these are alternate pronunciations, we would already have defacto > alternate pronunciations of {x}, which we have no choice but to > accept. I don't really consider it alternate, for the same reason that > I consider plosives in English to be the same sound whether they are > pronounced with an actual plosive, or just pronouced as a stop. > > -epkat > > On 10/12/06, Alex Martini wrote: >> In episode two, I hear you use an unvoiced velar (maybe glottal) >> trill when reading the holoalphabetic sentence, and when you say {xu} >> in the list of cmavo at the end. >> >> For comparison purposes, I stuck a short recoding of both on my site. >> http://umich.edu/~alexjm/ >> >> I would suspect that if a Lojban speaker hears the velar fricative, >> the uvular fricative, or the velar trill, these are all close enough >> to get across the point that {x} was the intended phoneme. How were >> the original "allowed alternates" decided, and is it possible to add >> to these at some point? >> >> On Oct 12, 2006, at 2:09 PM, Matt Arnold wrote: >> >> > On 10/12/06, Gabriel Koulikov wrote: >> >> >> >> From what I can tell, even Matt Arnold of the wonderful >> >> jbocradi podcast mispronounces it in ALL of his podcasts to date. >> > >> > That's news to me. What do the others think? >> > -Matt (epkat) >> > >> > > > > >