Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 23 May 2007 08:39:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HqswD-0007QD-Fs for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 08:39:48 -0700 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.172]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Hqsw2-0007Po-8e for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 23 May 2007 08:39:44 -0700 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 78so160721ugn for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 08:39:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=TJUWByfAsd10Fy+T82qhIsSO3SE8/W3NGC5vXcbnu/prBXBY98V7T50oGMCcPvVG/+7EoP7Ee5RJotjpmq5bp7SvbAqL2ltrZQoFfq7psX8wflgi0jFXIG/OdPirZgmor/v7FYSMJiJIT1KTdtUUjI8axZIWSHweZ6GB+MaHs3k= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=Sq3mBTD6ys/Mv366mALtWqKPs8uXmaJzVofc+cTv0muuLNkivEROIMUuKMxtardk2nZXflqESX8GaLdoSGozmutyW0pp3ZYPnX2zgmna+/Fz84+A/V6tba/CTTTPY3gUdyndRIVQ/B2vLECRIfhiGQtShYpkOgbKaApFMt4Pq6Y= Received: by 10.114.159.1 with SMTP id h1mr334778wae.1179934767291; Wed, 23 May 2007 08:39:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.109.12 with HTTP; Wed, 23 May 2007 08:39:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <12d58c160705230839s4e49fa37o19758468d9dd3c9a@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 11:39:27 -0400 From: "komfo,amonan" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: lojbanization In-Reply-To: <537d06d00705230801g59b7bf87x70a0e8820db6686a@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_99178_31575162.1179934767183" References: <2f91285f0705230545h102beb4q6548c42b932bf299@mail.gmail.com> <12d58c160705230751sa3f6dc9ldfb339d19c988e8d@mail.gmail.com> <537d06d00705230801g59b7bf87x70a0e8820db6686a@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: c0a70a66df72bcd5 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 4613 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: komfoamonan@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners Content-Length: 3875 ------=_Part_99178_31575162.1179934767183 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 5/23/07, Philip Newton wrote: > > On 5/23/07, komfo,amonan wrote: > > Perhaps there ought to be a natlang-Lojban phoneme mapping system for > names. > > It'd be ahead of English, which has semi-standardised transliterations > for some languages, but you still get "Muhammad" vs. "Mohammed", etc. > > Not to mention that then you'd have to worry about dialects -- would > it be acceptable to use a one-size-fits-all mapping from, say, Greek > for the name of someone who pronounces his name in his native dialect > not with /dz/ (as in "adze") but with /dZ/ (as in "edge") instead? In > which case, {la .opuDJIS.} would arguably be better than the {la > .opuDZIS.} you'd probably get from a standardised, > based-on-the-standard-dialect, mapping. In cases where we have access to a person's pronunciation of his/her own name, that should indeed be the basis of Lojbanization. But most Lojbanised cmene will be of dead people and place names. I actually think that, in those cases, *starting* with standardised, based-on-the-standard-dialect mapping is advantageous. Ideally we would get a consensus of Shona Lojbanists for Shona names, and a consensus of Tamil Lojbanists for Tamil names. But in most cases that's not going to happen. A mapping system may minimize the number of Lojban variants for such names that arise when non-native speakers take cracks at them (I'm a little sensitive to variants). mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan ------=_Part_99178_31575162.1179934767183 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 5/23/07, Philip Newton <philip.newton@gmail.com> wrote:
On 5/23/07, komfo,amonan <komfoamonan@gmail.com> wrote:
> Perhaps there ought to be a natlang-Lojban phoneme mapping system for names.

It'd be ahead of English, which has semi-standardised transliterations
for some languages, but you still get "Muhammad" vs. "Mohammed", etc.

Not to mention that then you'd have to worry about dialects -- would
it be acceptable to use a one-size-fits-all mapping from, say, Greek
for the name of someone who pronounces his name in his native dialect
not with /dz/ (as in "adze") but with /dZ/ (as in "edge") instead? In
which case, {la .opuDJIS.} would arguably be better than the {la
.opuDZIS.} you'd probably get from a standardised,
based-on-the-standard-dialect, mapping.

In cases where we have access to a person's pronunciation of his/her own name, that should indeed be the basis of Lojbanization. But most Lojbanised cmene will be of dead people and place names. I actually think that, in those cases, *starting* with standardised, based-on-the-standard-dialect mapping is advantageous. Ideally we would get a consensus of Shona Lojbanists for Shona names, and a consensus of Tamil Lojbanists for Tamil names. But in most cases that's not going to happen. A mapping system may minimize the number of Lojban variants for such names that arise when non-native speakers take cracks at them (I'm a little sensitive to variants). mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan
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