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Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 16:25:55 +0100
From: "Vid Sintef" <picos.picos@gmail.com>
To: lojban-beginners <lojban-beginners@lojban.org>
Subject: [lojban-beginners] {sutra tavla + ...}
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In the Book's chapter 2.9 there's a tanru {sutra tavla cutci} which is said
to mean "a shoe that is worn by a fast talker". But I think it can also mean
"a shoe that is of a fast-talking type (and is worn by x2)" i.e. "a shoe
that talks fast", as {sutra tavla pendo} can possibly mean "a friend that is
of a fast-talking type (and is befriended by x2)" i.e. "a friend that talks
fast". If that reading is impossible, {sutra tavla pendo} should accordingly
mean "a friend that is befriended by a fast talker". Would that be a general
grasp among Lojbanists, though? It's likely that some people would read
{sutra tavla pendo} as "a friend who talks fast" rather than "somebody who
is befriended by x2 which is a fast talker".

So, there at least within my newbie mind is a contradiction or confusion of
which sumti place of the rightmost word in a tanru is to be modified by the
left-side word(s). The Book says simply "the first one modifies the second".
This I understand as far as it's a two-word tanru like {sutra tavla}. As to
a more-than-two-word tanru the Book says the combined meaning of the first
group modifies the next word, in which case {sutra tavla pendo} would be
"'somebody who talks fast' + 'somebody who is befriended by somebody'".
According to the explanation given to {sutra tavla cutci} "a shoe (x1) that
is worn by a fast talker (x2)", the "someone who talks fast" should be
capable of modifying the x2 as well as x1 of {pendo} in {sutra tavla pendo}.
This way I get 2 meanings:

1) a fast talker (x1) who is befriended by somebody (x2) = a person (x2) who
befriends a fast talker (x1)
2) a fast talker (x2) who befriends somebody (x1) = a person (x1) who is
befriended by a fast talker (x2)


.uanai mu'o mi'e vid

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<span>In the Book&#39;s chapter 2.9 there&#39;s a tanru {sutra tavla cutci} which is said to mean </span>&quot;a shoe that is worn by a fast talker&quot;<span>. But I think it can also mean &quot;a shoe that is of a fast-talking type (and is worn by x2)&quot; 
i.e. &quot;a shoe that talks fast&quot;, as {sutra tavla pendo} can possibly mean &quot;a friend that is of a fast-talking type (and is befriended by x2)&quot; i.e. &quot;a friend that talks fast&quot;. If that reading is impossible, {sutra tavla pendo} should accordingly mean &quot;a friend that is befriended by a fast talker&quot;. Would that be a general grasp among Lojbanists, though? It&#39;s likely that some people would read {sutra tavla pendo} as &quot;a friend who talks fast&quot; rather than &quot;somebody who is befriended by x2 which is a fast talker&quot;.
<br><br>So, there at least within my newbie mind is a contradiction or confusion of which sumti place of the rightmost word in a tanru is to be modified by the left-side word(s). The Book says simply &quot;the first one modifies the second&quot;. This I understand as far as it&#39;s a two-word tanru like {sutra tavla}. As to a more-than-two-word tanru the Book says the combined meaning of the first group modifies the next word, in which case {sutra tavla pendo} would be &quot;&#39;somebody who talks fast&#39; + &#39;somebody who is befriended by somebody&#39;&quot;. According to the explanation given to {sutra tavla cutci} &quot;a shoe (x1) that is worn by a fast talker (x2)&quot;, the &quot;someone who talks fast&quot; should be capable of modifying the x2 as well as x1 of {pendo} in {sutra tavla pendo}. This way I get 2 meanings:
<br><br>1) a fast talker (x1) who is befriended by somebody (x2) = a person (x2) who befriends a fast talker (x1)<br>2) a fast talker (x2) who befriends somebody (x1) = a person (x1) who is befriended by a fast talker (x2)
<br><br><br>.uanai mu&#39;o mi&#39;e vid<br><br><br><br> </span>

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