Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Sun, 27 May 2007 18:07:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HsThf-0000Kr-Eh for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Sun, 27 May 2007 18:07:20 -0700 Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com ([66.249.82.229]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HsThc-0000Kj-2I for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Sun, 27 May 2007 18:07:19 -0700 Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id t11so1001982wxc for ; Sun, 27 May 2007 18:07:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=SBI9wX1qsMO7+R57yl2p3bzKUMNvKFF/P6TCVEY5rGEXKMwN/t4rhDvCL8kOGOBHe5k/byV/EMRh9sXsxgU/nvV+O8YI52sK9i/ObaiW9YBrtuA6uDSz4+zdBgRYzSpOMYJfqFghjtKPwjJOCxdxdEK6py4sJaUSw64kZqI/nIg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=GW6TtN0EIBqZuqzdXmcCnw8lYiSRL+3r07CLcpwqv/JulxostITpD/DuE35tmmACQKjiwT0AnOjzk6AsWsyKozwMSE8iJRcJ3VeECVR+kXSJhnuhUsdqeGaP+0KXBes7ClhsxCUtE+gmmfPzoqnV7FIY0UV/rqGTqwIoqLXQeQE= Received: by 10.70.113.13 with SMTP id l13mr7614869wxc.1180314434316; Sun, 27 May 2007 18:07:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.9.19 with HTTP; Sun, 27 May 2007 18:07:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2f91285f0705271807k5100a7f2h5fd37d8a19c81571@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 02:07:14 +0100 From: "Vid Sintef" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: dicussions about basic vocabulary In-Reply-To: <1180279524.4659a2e4a0d00@ssl0.ovh.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_101877_30726029.1180314434232" References: <1180279524.4659a2e4a0d00@ssl0.ovh.net> X-Spam-Score: 0.1 X-Spam-Score-Int: 1 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 4740 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: picos.picos@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners Content-Length: 10988 ------=_Part_101877_30726029.1180314434232 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 5/27/07, m.kornig@sondal.net wrote: > > I'm interested in basic functions, and I guess that's what > people are interested in when they start to learn a language: > They want to be able to communicate in simple situations > as quickly as possible. They want to be able to "catch" > some basic vocabulary in what others say and in simple texts > they may come across. And they will certainly expect this > from a language that claims to be easy to learn... Learning Lojban may be quite different an experience than learning a natlang (which is what the designers of Lojban themselves must have meant it to be so). When I started to study Lojban and try to grasp what Lojbanists were saying or had written on the internet, I realised that I needed more knowledge of those "little words" like {se} or {be} (which are quite representative of what you called the "basic functions" in Lojban) than knowledge of how to say "mountain" (the need of which I have rarely come across so far). I was more interested in those ubiquitous cmavo found in the actual Lojbanic conversations than in how to express "radio". Also, when I first visited the Lojban Wikipedia or tried to explore the Lojban version of lojban.org for some reading exercise, I was instantly dismayed, because I couldn't comprehend the very navigation vocabularies themselves. What I would expect from a language that claims to be easy to learn is, at least, not that it provides a list of words which are out of the actual & everyday usage in Lojbanistan and later disappoints me with the fact that what I have memorised from the list are actually not of great usefulness. > Remember > the My-First-Lojban-Words list currently as 121 > items only. And I don't want it to become neither > too "hi-tech" nor too big. I'm not proposing a scheme to transform your list into something macho. My attention is: because for the most people the web is the prime resource for learning & exercising Lojban from the beginning, people would be perplexed and unhappy if they have memorised the meaning of {ckana} but cannot figure out what Lojbanists have actually written as basic indicational & navigational expressions on various lojbanic web materials. In the realm of the constructed languages, the importance of words like "passport" or "tomato" isn't necessarily of the utmost. People may be interested in how to say "tomato" in Lojban; but not everybody may. If that ("tomato") is what one would personally like to express for whatever reason, it should suffice that he/she memorises that word from the gimste as a personal strategy. What they ought to be firstly provided with, though, is a list of words which (a) they may not deftly predict to be important or which (b) they might not quickly nor accurately find out. The former refers to e.g. { mu'o }, and the latter e.g. { mi na jimpe } which is already in your list. { mu'o } can always be found on ma'oste but most beginners may not be aware of its usefulness, so they have to be informed of it somehow. { mi na jimpe } for beginners should obviously be an important expression but hard to come up with since it's not on gimste, so there's a reason it has to be on your list. > Is there anything less important we could drop? > Does a beginner need much more? > > May I suggest that for every additional word someone > proposes you also propose a word to be dropped from > the list of 21? Okay? > > Could someone please sort out the Lojban equivalents > for these 21 words? Picking up them from the terminology pages on lojban.org should be easier. I would suggest these: selcukta (document) selsku (content with meaning = pictures, sounds, texts ...) joncku (web page) telckujo'e (links in a document) ralju ckupau (main page / home) sisku (search) as well as these IRC phrases: coi ro do (hi everybody) co'o ro do (bye everybody) doi + NAME (identifies intended listener) .ua (discovery = Oh! / I see!) .ua nai (confused = Huh? / Do tell!) .ui (happy = :-) ) .ui nai (unhappy = :-( ) sai (attitudinal modifier: moderate intensity = very) As to the 21, I would keep these: e-mail/web address username password login message/comment discussion/talk It'd be also cool if every beginner knows these: xu (Is ... true?) ki'a (what is ...? / ... is what?) po'u (which is ...) ku'i (but/however ...) mu'a (for example) ta'o (by the way) ke'o (please repeat what you've said) .e (sumti connective = and) gi'e (gismu connective = and) vi / va / vu (location distance: short / medium / long) zi / za / zu (time distance: shot / medium / long) pu / ba (time interval: past / future) Vid ------=_Part_101877_30726029.1180314434232 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 5/27/07, m.kornig@sondal.net < m.kornig@sondal.net> wrote:
I'm interested in basic functions, and I guess that's what
people are interested in when they start to learn a language:
They want to be able to communicate in simple situations
as quickly as possible. They want to be able to "catch"
some basic vocabulary in what others say and in simple texts
they may come across. And they will certainly expect this
from a language that claims to be easy to learn...

Learning Lojban may be quite different an experience than learning a natlang (which is what the designers of Lojban themselves must have meant it to be so). When I started to study Lojban and try to grasp what Lojbanists were saying or had written on the internet, I realised that I needed more knowledge of those "little words" like {se} or {be} (which are quite representative of what you called the "basic functions" in Lojban) than knowledge of how to say "mountain" (the need of which I have rarely come across so far). I was more interested in those ubiquitous cmavo found in the actual Lojbanic conversations than in how to express "radio". Also, when I first visited the Lojban Wikipedia or tried to explore the Lojban version of lojban.org for some reading exercise, I was instantly dismayed, because I couldn't comprehend the very navigation vocabularies themselves.

What I would expect from a language that claims to be easy to learn is, at least, not that it provides a list of words which are out of the actual & everyday usage in Lojbanistan and later disappoints me with the fact that what I have memorised from the list are actually not of great usefulness.
 
Remember
the My-First-Lojban-Words list currently as 121
items only. And I don't want it to become neither
too "hi-tech" nor too big.

I'm not proposing a scheme to transform your list into something macho. My attention is: because for the most people the web is the prime resource for learning & exercising Lojban from the beginning, people would be perplexed and unhappy if they have memorised the meaning of {ckana} but cannot figure out what Lojbanists have actually written as basic indicational & navigational expressions on various lojbanic web materials. In the realm of the constructed languages, the importance of words like "passport" or "tomato" isn't necessarily of the utmost. People may be interested in how to say "tomato" in Lojban; but not everybody may. If that ("tomato") is what one would personally like to express for whatever reason, it should suffice that he/she memorises that word from the gimste as a personal strategy. What they ought to be firstly provided with, though, is a list of words which (a) they may not deftly predict to be important or which (b) they might not quickly nor accurately find out. The former refers to e.g. { mu'o }, and the latter e.g . { mi na jimpe } which is already in your list. { mu'o } can always be found on ma'oste but most beginners may not be aware of its usefulness, so they have to be informed of it somehow . { mi na jimpe } for beginners should obviously be an important expression but hard to come up with since it's not on gimste, so there's a reason it has to be on your list.

> Is there anything less important we could drop?
> Does a beginner need much more?
>
> May I suggest that for every additional word someone
> proposes you also propose a word to be dropped from
> the list of 21? Okay?
>
> Could someone please sort out the Lojban equivalents
> for these 21 words?

Picking up them from the terminology pages on lojban.org should be easier. I would suggest these:

selcukta (document)
selsku (content with meaning = pictures, sounds, texts ...)
joncku (web page)
telckujo'e (links in a document)
ralju ckupau (main page / home)
sisku (search)

as well as these IRC phrases:

coi ro do (hi everybody)
co'o ro do (bye everybody)
doi + NAME (identifies intended listener)

.ua (discovery = Oh! / I see!)
.ua nai (confused = Huh? / Do tell!)
.ui (happy = :-) )
.ui nai (unhappy = :-( )
sai (attitudinal modifier: moderate intensity = very)

As to the 21, I would keep these:

e-mail/web address
username
password
login
message/comment
discussion/talk

It'd be also cool if every beginner knows these:

xu (Is ... true?)
ki'a (what is ...? / ... is what?)
po'u (which is ...)
ku'i (but/however ...)
mu'a (for example)
ta'o (by the way)
ke'o (please repeat what you've said)

.e (sumti connective = and)
gi'e (gismu connective = and)

vi / va / vu (location distance: short / medium / long)
zi / za / zu (time distance: shot / medium / long)
pu / ba (time interval: past / future)


Vid
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