Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Fri, 22 Jun 2007 13:06:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1I1pOg-0005Qx-MV for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Fri, 22 Jun 2007 13:06:23 -0700 Received: from sparkle.rodents.montreal.qc.ca ([216.46.5.7] ident=IfTCwfg2TorCcLDTEY3CgPDd1QYwjJa36ajvCJyD0Xe) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1I1pOd-0005Qg-06 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Fri, 22 Jun 2007 13:06:22 -0700 Received: (from mouse@localhost) by Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA09843; Fri, 22 Jun 2007 16:06:08 -0400 (EDT) From: der Mouse Message-Id: <200706222006.QAA09843@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Erik-Conspiracy: There is no Conspiracy - and if there were I wouldn't be part of it anyway. X-Message-Flag: Microsoft: the company who gave us the botnet zombies. Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 15:46:08 -0400 (EDT) To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: lojban-beginners Digest V6 #110 In-Reply-To: References: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 5114 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mouse@Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners Content-Length: 1691 >> The problem is not just one of "habit and training". The problem is >> that the brain actually loses the ability to distinguish between >> phonemes that are not consequential in their language. Surely this is not so much totally losing that ability as it is just losing the ability to make linguistically important parsing decisions based on it without conscious attention? Otherwise I'm a very odd person. For example, the difference between French "joue" (cheek) and "jus" (juice) is a property of the vowel, one that is not semantically relevant in the only language I grew up with (English). But, as with many other sonic differences that are not significant in English, I can hear this difference (though I have trouble perceiving it in connected speech unless I am specifically listening for it.) I'm also not much good at producing it, but, again, I can if I consciously make a point of it. >> tests with PET scans of native Japanese speakers vs. German and >> English speakers have shown that hearing of the sounds [l] and [r] >> are processed in two different parts of German and English speakers' >> brains, but only in a single place in a Japanese speaker's brains. I hadn't heard that; it's very interesting. Do you have a citation? I'd like to learn more - that kind of stuff fascinates me. > [...] may indicate that synaptic connections are rebuilt (even with > adults) after some weeks of training. Is this possible/plausible? The plasticity of the human brain/mind is often far underrated. :) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B