Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Tue, 23 Oct 2007 07:17:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1IkKZ6-0007ns-2e for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Tue, 23 Oct 2007 07:17:04 -0700 Received: from rv-out-0910.google.com ([209.85.198.187]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1IkKZ3-0007nN-K5 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Tue, 23 Oct 2007 07:17:03 -0700 Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b22so1393061rvf for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2007 07:16:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=d4mCkmRzZiXtzYA4gshRpNXblCmxe+uhrqebKj60x90=; b=ZZrrcXc+h8z/l4BdGPzvInthPoZ0EGQkE2Ex8DtXfJASyr+HC7fy36QxWwUmivfo8DM9fewfuc174N6ELECJtJydEcV9LsBGyOwm+4ZP6nNgpAAlJRrXfIacjzth6kyAD5DS4kneTgfRExYopXbxACcZyfKECOJlB6v3pmsk97E= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=igjnqRWU93psFPIMI6JEYgQjoShsYPWwG66+YUZ4gLbMMt7qhkwlk8fm6Ei7S/y1AtBd/jU3GTwFvLFToYoJtoXX8aOcsKnN+8l/QUh4jfsyltNgvgKwuI2ray2RoFNZ0KHwST8CDXscM233CwWXJcZdplWilDMDZutLtQik1NE= Received: by 10.140.170.12 with SMTP id s12mr3102718rve.1193149019859; Tue, 23 Oct 2007 07:16:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.123.14 with HTTP; Tue, 23 Oct 2007 07:16:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <97f5058c0710230716g2f60b55avd53e2cedd10c9f42@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 22:16:59 +0800 From: Penguino To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: learning to climb on floors In-Reply-To: <97f5058c0710230706u20e33d3pc5acefec8bdd9bb2@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_715_32483976.1193149019838" References: <6ee9d0ca0710222351q7547a487q41a4e89b31ab2f30@mail.gmail.com> <200710230703.04940.phma@phma.optus.nu> <71550650710230541x67eadfe9kdc09ea83de559add@mail.gmail.com> <97f5058c0710230644x5b63e945x89b728ab66fe2cff@mail.gmail.com> <97f5058c0710230706u20e33d3pc5acefec8bdd9bb2@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 5541 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: spheniscine@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners Content-Length: 9018 ------=_Part_715_32483976.1193149019838 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 10/23/07, Penguino wrote: > > > > On 10/23/07, Penguino wrote: > > > > > > > > On 10/23/07, Yoav Nir < yoav.nir@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Should it be {lo nu cpare}, or should we use {du'u} or {su'u}? > > > I thought that {nu} is specific to events, whereas {su'u} is more > > > general. Or is crawling an event/achievement? > > > > > > mi'e ioav > > > > > > On 10/23/07, Pierre Abbat < phma@phma.optus.nu > wrote: > > > > > > > > On Tuesday 23 October 2007 02:51, John Daigle wrote: > > > > > Hello to the mailing list. mi'e djan. > > > > > > > > > > I have just started writing my blog in lojban. I thought it would > > > > be a good > > > > > idea to write about what my son does, because he does very simple > > > > things. > > > > > I'm thinking of creating a few kid's books in lojban. It turns out > > > > to be > > > > > hard to keep it simple! Even a sentence like "Connor is learning > > > > to crawl" > > > > > is difficult. For a kid's book, I would stick to "Connor is > > > > crawling." > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, for today, this is what I wrote: > > > > > > > > > > la kan,r. cilre cpare le loldi .i le cpare be le loldi cu frili > > > > .ui .i la > > > > > kan,r. cilre sanli. .i le sanli. cu nandu .oi > > > > > > > > > > This is what I meant to say: > > > > > > > > > > Connor is learning to crawl (lit. Connor is climbing on floors in > > > > a > > > > > learning way). Crawling is easy! Connor is learning to stand. > > > > Standing is > > > > > hard! > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps someone could tell me what I actually said? And perhaps > > > > how to say > > > > > what I wanted to say? Note: I'm trying to stick to the gismu as > > > > much as > > > > > possible. > > > > > > > > Connor is learning-crawling the floor. The crawler on the floor is > > > > easy! > > > > Connor is learning-standing. The stander is hard. > > > > > > > > la kan,r. cilre fi lo nu cpare le loldi .i lo nu cpare lo loldi cu > > > > frili .ui .i la kan,r cilre fi lo nu sanli .i lo nu sanli cu nandu > > > > .oi > > > > > > > > {lo nu cpare} could go in either x2 or x3 of {cilre}: > > > > la kan,r. cilre lo nu cpare kei lo nu klama .i > > > > la kan,r. cilre lo du'u muvgau lo mokau sluni kei lo nu cpare > > > > > > > > > The gismu cpare is listed as climb/clamber/creep/crawl, but the > > > > lojban > > > > > translator sticks to "climb-er(s)". What is the correct usage? > > > > > > > > If x3 is horizontal, it's "crawl"; if x3 is vertical, it's "climb". > > > > Glenn > > > > Doman, when talking about children moving, distinguishes between > > > > "creep" > > > > and "crawl" based, IIRR, on whether the child lifts the belly off > > > > the floor. > > > > > > > > I just had an idea - "chromatograph" could be {parxumlanli}. How > > > > does that > > > > sound? > > > > > > > > Pierre > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think {du'u} refers to a proposition; it is often used for > > "epistemology words", like {djuno} "know" or {sruma} "assume" > > {su'u} can be used as a generalized abstraction - you can use it if you > > don't want to think about the finer differences between the abstractors. > > Personally I'd use {zu'o} "activity of" in this situation, although {nu} > > is fine too. > > > By the way, here's my translation: > la kanr. cilre fi lezu'o cidydzu .i .ui lezu'o cidydzu cu frili .i la > kanr. cilre fi lezu'o sanli .i .a'i lezu'o sanli cu nandu > Hmm... perhaps the second and fourth sentences can be shortened further by use of appropriate attitudinals. la kanr. cilre fi lezu'o cidydzu .i .uifu'i zu'o cidydzu .i la kanr. cilre fi lezu'o sanli .i .oifu'inai zu'o sanli ------=_Part_715_32483976.1193149019838 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On 10/23/07, Penguino <spheniscine@gmail.com> wrote:


On 10/23/07, Penguino < spheniscine@gmail.com> wrote:


On 10/23/07, Yoav Nir < yoav.nir@gmail.com> wrote:
Should it be {lo nu cpare}, or should we use {du'u} or {su'u}?

I thought that {nu} is specific to events, whereas {su'u} is more general. Or is crawling an event/achievement?

mi'e ioav


On 10/23/07, Pierre Abbat < phma@phma.optus.nu > wrote:
On Tuesday 23 October 2007 02:51, John Daigle wrote:
> Hello to the mailing list. mi'e djan.
>
> I have just started writing my blog in lojban. I thought it would be a good
> idea to write about what my son does, because he does very simple things.
> I'm thinking of creating a few kid's books in lojban. It turns out to be
> hard to keep it simple! Even a sentence like "Connor is learning to crawl"
> is difficult. For a kid's book, I would stick to "Connor is crawling."
>
> Anyway, for today, this is what I wrote:
>
> la kan,r. cilre cpare le loldi .i le cpare be le loldi cu frili .ui .i la
> kan,r. cilre sanli. .i le sanli. cu nandu .oi
>
> This is what I meant to say:
>
> Connor is learning to crawl (lit. Connor is climbing on floors in a
> learning way). Crawling is easy! Connor is learning to stand. Standing is
> hard!
>
> Perhaps someone could tell me what I actually said? And perhaps how to say
> what I wanted to say? Note: I'm trying to stick to the gismu as much as
> possible.

Connor is learning-crawling the floor. The crawler on the floor is easy!
Connor is learning-standing. The stander is hard.

la kan,r. cilre fi lo nu cpare le loldi .i lo nu cpare lo loldi cu
frili .ui .i la kan,r cilre fi lo nu sanli .i lo nu sanli cu nandu .oi

{lo nu cpare} could go in either x2 or x3 of {cilre}:
la kan,r. cilre lo nu cpare kei lo nu klama .i
la kan,r. cilre lo du'u muvgau lo mokau sluni kei lo nu cpare

> The gismu cpare is listed as climb/clamber/creep/crawl, but the lojban
> translator sticks to "climb-er(s)". What is the correct usage?

If x3 is horizontal, it's "crawl"; if x3 is vertical, it's "climb". Glenn
Doman, when talking about children moving, distinguishes between "creep"
and "crawl" based, IIRR, on whether the child lifts the belly off the floor.

I just had an idea - "chromatograph" could be {parxumlanli}. How does that
sound?

Pierre




 
I think {du'u} refers to a proposition; it is often used for "epistemology words", like {djuno} "know" or {sruma} "assume"
{su'u} can be used as a generalized abstraction - you can use it if you don't want to think about the finer differences between the abstractors.
Personally I'd use {zu'o} "activity of" in this situation, although {nu} is fine too.
By the way, here's my translation:
la kanr. cilre fi lezu'o cidydzu .i .ui lezu'o cidydzu cu frili .i la kanr. cilre fi lezu'o sanli .i .a'i lezu'o sanli cu nandu
Hmm... perhaps the second and fourth sentences can be shortened further by use of appropriate attitudinals.
la kanr. cilre fi lezu'o cidydzu .i .uifu'i zu'o cidydzu .i la kanr. cilre fi lezu'o sanli .i .oifu'inai zu'o sanli
------=_Part_715_32483976.1193149019838--