Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 24 Oct 2007 14:29:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Iknmj-00027g-JJ for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 24 Oct 2007 14:29:06 -0700 Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com ([64.233.182.187]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Iknmh-00027T-4l for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 24 Oct 2007 14:29:05 -0700 Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id 4so252833nfv for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2007 14:28:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=/H2zsIN6Ucmj/4KvEKCJ7d6knxquOJoYOPulYDsS+Vo=; b=SPSHAvm/BLL04VPFC4Fg94bkJYxffPIGtMYLORHLWixai9hYyHZWEF/xQZhYQEuSeSm+0tvwQuVEOkkel9F0zmtAFngqcbjTiRzRgeTYPOd+tTv2SV8tVGsekYGJaP3fG1W3MjOnjrxzVHg01jN9Hc/h15n2/eu3shqs/M9BIWc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=gyQ2vBVhry98c/addxx0c67SdeoYyBAtm3+PuClZumhxjH5UPKqKacZbTho+1wd/4wroEmlQmAbq7MnsSN5xfgqY7hPGw8JYqsJG6V64N7PxdFGo7OZvc9Yi5PgEDcQUwvuGkNa1OTNXij60Tt4uanHymQJ1huW5+MjU6euy9hU= Received: by 10.86.98.18 with SMTP id v18mr769078fgb.1193261337930; Wed, 24 Oct 2007 14:28:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.86.27.5 with HTTP; Wed, 24 Oct 2007 14:28:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <6ee9d0ca0710241428g149a80afx37091c8d3bcb1af6@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 17:28:57 -0400 From: "John Daigle" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: learning to climb on floors In-Reply-To: <925d17560710240652m68c09a05i2da6b09641764142@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_6337_3551409.1193261337908" References: <6ee9d0ca0710222351q7547a487q41a4e89b31ab2f30@mail.gmail.com> <5e124660710230747q6dcb1da8y4e3fca5c10e4952f@mail.gmail.com> <6ee9d0ca0710231028y4e96cb86s6417bad09115c5cd@mail.gmail.com> <97f5058c0710231049k120b01a5o7dbbe705522431f2@mail.gmail.com> <6ee9d0ca0710231113n4e2889adl8700f7e124a5c095@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560710231204u8176ab2v3637e3d267ccae41@mail.gmail.com> <71550650710240124m111eb71ftff3fa65670e87fc8@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560710240546j541a8e50n834afa058372c4f2@mail.gmail.com> <97f5058c0710240617q12c6cd38w75d6a9aa5c881fc2@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560710240652m68c09a05i2da6b09641764142@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 5578 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: johnpdaigle@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners Content-Length: 4611 ------=_Part_6337_3551409.1193261337908 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline It seems that for simplicities sake, you could use "binxo" alone to imply that someone is in the process of becoming a crawler or speaker of lojban, etc, or the aforementioned clire binxo. I know that the objection was raised that this could imply a teaching relationship (crawling in an instructive manner) but I don't see how. Wouldn't you use ctuca cpare to imply teaching? In lobjan level 0, the statement is that in a tanru metaphor the first of a pair modifies the second, so in clire cpare, learning is modifying crawling. So we know that x1 is crawling, and that learning is associated with the manner in which x1 crawls. But binxo is more general. We wouldn't say clire tlavla because to learn to speak another language requires many actions. On 10/24/07, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: > > On 10/24/07, Penguino wrote: > > Interesting. I'm wondering, since crebi'o literally means "become exper= t > > at", would it more properly refer to the actual acquisition of the > skill, > > and not the process? > > You can use it to refer to the acquisition as a whole {lo nu co'i > crebi'o}, > {lo mu'e crebi'o}, or to the process as it unfolds {lo nu ca'o crebi'o}, > {lo pu'e crebi'o}. > > > Perhaps the OP can be better rephrased as "Connor is > > trying to become expert at crawling"; la kanr. troci lezu'o crebi'o > lezu'o > > cidydzu? Of course this makes the sentence quite complicated. Maybe a > new > > word is needed, crebixtoi "try to become expert at" perhaps? > > There is no end to the process of precisifying what you mean. :) > > But maybe Connor was really learning, not just trying to learn? > Most children do actually learn how to crawl. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > > > --=20 John Daigle ------=_Part_6337_3551409.1193261337908 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline It seems that for simplicities sake, you could use "binxo" alone = to imply that someone is in the process of becoming a crawler or speaker of= lojban, etc, or the aforementioned clire binxo.

I know that the ob= jection was raised that this could imply a teaching relationship (crawling = in an instructive manner) but I don't see how. Wouldn't you use ctu= ca cpare to imply teaching? In lobjan level 0, the statement is that in a t= anru metaphor the first of a pair modifies the second, so in clire cpare, l= earning is modifying crawling. So we know that x1 is crawling, and that lea= rning is associated with the manner in which x1 crawls.=20

But binxo is more general. We wouldn't say clire tlavla because= to learn to speak another language requires many actions.


On 10/24/07, Jor= ge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:
On 10/24/07, Penguino <spheni= scine@gmail.com> wrote:
> Interesting. I'm wondering, sinc= e crebi'o literally means "become expert
> at", would it more properly refer to the actual acquisition o= f the skill,
> and not the process?

You can use it to refer to the acquisi= tion as a whole {lo nu co'i crebi'o},
{lo mu'e crebi'o},= or to the process as it unfolds {lo nu ca'o crebi'o},
{lo pu= 9;e crebi'o}.

> Perhaps the OP can be better rephrased as "Connor is
&= gt; trying to become expert at crawling"; la kanr. troci lezu'o cr= ebi'o lezu'o
> cidydzu? Of course this makes the sentence qui= te complicated. Maybe a new
> word is needed, crebixtoi "try to become expert at" perh= aps?

There is no end to the process of precisifying what you mean. := )

But maybe Connor was really learning, not just trying to learn?
Most children do actually learn how to crawl.

mu'o mi'e = xorxes






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J= ohn Daigle ------=_Part_6337_3551409.1193261337908--