Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:16:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1IlAzq-0007tk-Gf for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:16:11 -0700 Received: from mu-out-0910.google.com ([209.85.134.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1IlAzn-0007tX-A1 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:16:10 -0700 Received: by mu-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id i10so1065520mue for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:16:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=gSoq0mkE+MTu/qemwKZZ7WF34Te02KXGV80REqhAU+4=; b=PQsDHEB3U+JZVRyZZQhEcqbXWqnKb4dCtfsutQHslzzCL4MHd9S9j2D36qYKuIvcdKs8tp5a/GDcJDfjzGmP9xIztHe+XTT+dIBOEBzPjHYO5Fky/FhBV0iEF7n64NBb35xIBbRfUt/QVoSZdUJM00NjNw0REb2KcQEv0VmeIGI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=TDI+pFRH8eFZxfPopgOCKpQQ5TvwvEj8Dz0JPVasg8ZdzhPzLaOTtn1y7f0WmtkJVV5+aHnnVrAYUCiC0jZepLfSLz96Pbr9fIjNGjCjYs9Q8RidOxN02aN7t9nGmy8Jc7CkEEkzKlHjURh531bjNT95CMUfG4ZA6D5IHqBtNYA= Received: by 10.82.162.14 with SMTP id k14mr4958369bue.1193350564160; Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:16:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.82.113.2 with HTTP; Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:16:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2204fa080710251516w18930e95mf56628a2e841a688@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 17:16:04 -0500 From: "Jared Angell" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: ''''''''''' In-Reply-To: <47211028.8040500@lojban.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3802_6957642.1193350564147" References: <2204fa080710251408l73265a1fh42569c30289e406e@mail.gmail.com> <47211028.8040500@lojban.org> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 5653 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: angell.jared@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners Content-Length: 5580 ------=_Part_3802_6957642.1193350564147 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I see. Okay, I'm really curious: Are you a linguist Bob? And if not then why haven't you received an honorary degree in linguistics by now? Djared (Farlus) On 10/25/07, Robert LeChevalier wrote: > > Jared Angell wrote: > > Why was ' chosen instead of h? since h is left out but it's in the > > middle of the keyboard (even in Russian) this bothers me as a bad and > > annoying choice as the ' seems counterintuitive to anyone accustomed to > > the romantic character set and keyboard. Perhaps there are Spanish and > > French keyboards which readily have ' but lack h???? > > > > This irritates me something fierce so I'd like to hear the logic behind > > it if anyone knows. > > h is a consonant in all languages that have the letter. > > In Lojban, at least in theory, it is NOT defined as a consonant, but a > solution to the problem of vowel glides when two vowels are adjacent. > > Thinking of the orthography as representing the sound-stream: > If a close-comma appears between the two vowels, then there is a voiced > glide. If an apostrophe appears, then it is a devoiced glide. If a > period appears, there is a glottal stop (and it separates into two > words), and if none of these appear, the vowels form a diphthong. > > English speakers (and those of many other languages) often hear a > devoiced glide as an "h", and more importantly, they tend speak a > devoiced glide as an "h" as the default. In theory, you could use a > different devoiced sound (as long as it isn't one of the other unvoiced > consonants of Lojban, or a glottal stop), and some have used a devoiced > "th" which of course makes a lojbanist sound like like they have a funny > lithp. > > The apostrophe does not count as a consonant or a vowel in any of the > Lojban word-formation rules, which rely on consonant and vowel patterns. > If it were an h, we would probably have great difficulty keeping this > clear. > > lojbab > > > > > -- Jared "There is no emotion, there is peace; there is no ignorance, there is knowledge; there is no passion, there is serenity; there is no death, there is the Universe" "Work smart when you can and hard if you must" "When a system is corrupt then it's time for a reformat" "Open Source: The light side of computing. It's never too late to join" ------=_Part_3802_6957642.1193350564147 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I see.

Okay, I'm really curious: Are you a linguist Bob?  And if not then why haven't you received an honorary degree in linguistics by now?

Djared (Farlus)

On 10/25/07, Robert LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
Jared Angell wrote:
> Why was ' chosen instead of h?  since h is left out but it's in the
> middle of the keyboard (even in Russian) this bothers me as a bad and
> annoying choice as the ' seems counterintuitive to anyone accustomed to
> the romantic character set and keyboard.  Perhaps there are Spanish and
> French keyboards which readily have ' but lack h????
>
> This irritates me something fierce so I'd like to hear the logic behind
> it if anyone knows.

h is a consonant in all languages that have the letter.

In Lojban, at least in theory, it is NOT defined as a consonant, but a
solution to the problem of vowel glides when two vowels are adjacent.

Thinking of the orthography as representing the sound-stream:
If a close-comma appears between the two vowels, then there is a voiced
glide.  If an apostrophe appears, then it is a devoiced glide.  If a
period appears, there is a glottal stop (and it separates into two
words), and if none of these appear, the vowels form a diphthong.

English speakers (and those of many other languages) often hear a
devoiced glide as an "h", and more importantly, they tend speak a
devoiced glide as an "h" as the default.  In theory, you could use a
different devoiced sound (as long as it isn't one of the other unvoiced
consonants of Lojban, or a glottal stop), and some have used a devoiced
"th" which of course makes a lojbanist sound like like they have a funny
lithp.

The apostrophe does not count as a consonant or a vowel in any of the
Lojban word-formation rules, which rely on consonant and vowel patterns.
  If it were an h, we would probably have great difficulty keeping this
clear.

lojbab







--
Jared

"There is no emotion, there is peace;  there is no ignorance, there is knowledge;  there is no passion, there is serenity;  there is no death, there is the Universe"

"Work smart when you can and hard if you must"

"When a system is corrupt then it's time for a reformat"

"Open Source: The light side of computing.  It's never too late to join" ------=_Part_3802_6957642.1193350564147--