Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:39:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1Iy8tH-0001v3-RS for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:39:00 -0800 Received: from web88011.mail.re2.yahoo.com ([206.190.37.230]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1Iy8tC-0001uY-2R for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:38:59 -0800 Received: (qmail 52024 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Nov 2007 16:38:47 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Message-ID; b=n5n2o/aEw9xFqwXYL+FYQLzxb9Y+RiBPlqvVtIhjdEwqXgj/hJI0AxWfxrvzTWcJDPEWfwYoxUa44/l1M6uP+UQFHcduAsjr8wvhqf5P6T1RMU4S5oClyZp5zAh4CQYEBZ3Jkf3pmSw5qjiA6WF06b12/2N7GPSLk3fsHrCdk2Y=; X-YMail-OSG: Ai4axzEVM1nciAXuiHOhnhmH7VlBR667c.wzKL5v9QEKm0C8Bh9kzg5WtVFwuY1ZfgAcgjvuTjc466wost8csQaf0au9XrS0MDJdalY_p3zItRlvLZs- Received: from [99.229.12.248] by web88011.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:38:47 PST Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:38:47 -0800 (PST) From: "A. PIEKARSKI" Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Strange modals To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-449587316-1196440727=:50077" Message-ID: <207347.50077.qm@web88011.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 5832 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: totus@rogers.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners Content-Length: 6240 --0-449587316-1196440727=:50077 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii ----- Original Message ---- From: turnip To: A. PIEKARSKI ; lojban-beginners Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 12:53:52 PM Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Strange modals >3) {ma'e} comes from {marji} which is defines as 'x1 is material/stuff/matter >of type/composition including x2 in shape/form x3'. So how come {ma'e} in {mi >pilno lo rokci lo nu finti lo larcu dacti kei ma'e ta. I use rock to create >objects of art, including that one over there} means 'including'? > I think the confusion here is with the English translation. It would more literally read "I use rocks to create artworks, _with thing-composed-of-matter:that one._" In other words, "ta" refers to a particular piece of work that is composed of some matter (unspecified, but implying rock). I don't consider that the greatest sentence, but then, like pa'a, it's a very difficult word to use in the plain (non se-) form. Your translation is closer to what I expected - but I think different from the one given. All the examples I gave are from proposed cmavo definitions in http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=BPFK%20Sections which have already been checkpointed at least once. I hope they get reviewed again at some point. To be useful, I think they need to be in gloss form as well as understandable English. >4) {di'o} comes from {diklo}. Was the issue raised in >http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Issues+with+checkpointed+BPFK+ sections&bl >ever resolved? I must admit I still have problems knowing when to use {di'o} >and when to use {tu'i}. > I of course answered that question directly in another thread. It is MY understanding of the definition of diklo (and hence, di'o) that the X1 piece (di'o) refers to something that is localized, the X2 piece (sedi'o) refers to the placed it is localized to, and the X3 piece (tedi'o) is the wider range of stuff. Xorxes seems to agree that is a reasonable understanding. That discussion can also be found, in an expanded form in the lojban-beginners archive in The Goldilocks thread. As for tu'i/stuzi, that would be for something that is always located somewhere (US is in North America, My house is on Chestnut Street, etc.) What do you mean by 'something that is localized'? Isn't the US 'localized' in North America? mu'o mi'e andrus --0-449587316-1196440727=:50077 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

 
----- Original Message ----
From: turnip <turnip@bcpl.net>
To: A. PIEKARSKI <totus@rogers.com>; lojban-beginners <lojban-beginners@lojban.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 12:53:52 PM
Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Strange modals


>3) {ma'e} comes from {marji} which is defines as 'x1 is material/stuff/matter
>of type/composition including x2 in shape/form x3'. So how come {ma'e} in {mi
>pilno lo rokci lo nu finti lo larcu dacti kei ma'e ta. I use rock to create
>objects of art, including that one over there} means 'including'?
>

I think the confusion here is with the English translation.  It would more
literally read "I use rocks to create artworks, _with
thing-composed-of-matter:that one._"  In other words, "ta" refers to a
particular piece of work that is composed of some matter (unspecified, but
implying  rock).  I don't consider that the greatest sentence, but then, like
pa'a, it's a very difficult word to use in the plain (non se-) form.
 
Your translation is closer to what I expected - but I think different from the one given.  All the examples I gave are from proposed cmavo definitions in http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=BPFK%20Sections which have already been checkpointed at least once.  I hope they get reviewed again at some point.  To be useful, I think they need to be in gloss form as well as understandable English.

>4) {di'o} comes from {diklo}.  Was the issue raised in
>http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Issues+with+checkpointed+BPFK+
sections&bl
>ever resolved?  I must admit I still have problems knowing when to use {di'o}
>and when to use {tu'i}.
>
  I of course answered that question directly in another thread. It is MY
understanding of the definition of diklo (and hence, di'o) that the X1 piece
(di'o) refers to something that is localized, the X2 piece (sedi'o) refers to
the placed it is localized to, and the X3 piece (tedi'o) is the wider range of
stuff.  Xorxes seems to agree that is a reasonable understanding.  That
discussion can also be found, in an expanded form in the lojban-beginners
archive in The Goldilocks thread.

  As for tu'i/stuzi, that would be for something that is always located
somewhere (US is in North America, My house is on Chestnut Street, etc.)
 
What do you mean by 'something that is localized'?  Isn't the US 'localized' in North America?

mu'o mi'e andrus
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