Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 10 Dec 2007 05:04:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J1iJE-0004IU-MF for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 10 Dec 2007 05:04:33 -0800 Received: from rv-out-0910.google.com ([209.85.198.191]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J1iHE-0003mM-M2 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 10 Dec 2007 05:04:32 -0800 Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b22so1499774rvf for ; Mon, 10 Dec 2007 04:59:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=3lsJ2ihkaaBo8EmpqLhnA6YuMAei4/Tktx4nxXVBJJU=; b=tjb0ukAsWuqYt2j+K3FgaatIAa+xp2yh1BK9UtVPEGeCTR9bRokh/ANdvFNJ6i7d99IV31ZagzMtVmSOc27rALI5c5Fger7JamFcCcYlsz16C3WQik5B8Y3Sh0yVfPUwLCOhLYa7hD2UVN22Uo9psDz3vzx3nbDf5nfPpnzlkm8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=mjcwx4CD85cTEA+ymj6M7t4uGuVmN+wlUcWQuNtmejcJzkeYxjxF/RR9IbjR6E8JFimUvLBA98c2xvrK8meX2sp0kMNJjmE6moHekTWfy9AxWoqCSyOR2CIcjvDOL7zrIdHq0S8BMWsoaf4U3E7ahP7adTQ8rsstWUCZGZ/tRus= Received: by 10.141.196.13 with SMTP id y13mr4214177rvp.1197291555330; Mon, 10 Dec 2007 04:59:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.140.192.21 with HTTP; Mon, 10 Dec 2007 04:59:15 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 07:59:15 -0500 From: "Matt Arnold" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: newbies troubles 2 In-Reply-To: <000001c83aa8$5793cd40$06bb67c0$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <000001c83aa8$5793cd40$06bb67c0$@com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 5852 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: matt.mattarn@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners Content-Length: 2083 On Dec 9, 2007 4:13 PM, Alex Bruce wrote: > > My progress in lojban has being slow going. > > The flashcards I've received I'm making poor progress on, as it stands I've > managed to learn maybe 10 selbri. I'm getting better with the structure of > lojban but I can't seem to get the bulk down. > > I was thinking maybe some exercises in translation would help. Does anyone > have some paragraphs or anything that translate well into lojban? > > Or maybe you have another strategy I can use? > > Also I'm wondering about sarcasm, my favorite part of communication. > > An example in the beginners guide goes like this: > > .i .u'ipei do farlu le pesxu > You fell into the mud! Funny, eh? > > could well be ru'e: "Kinda..." Then again, it could also be naicai: > "Absolutely not, and I shall thank you never to mention it in my presence > again." (Allowing for some latitude in translation...) > > this I get, but the principle of sarcasm is to illustrate something such > that the absurdity of it serves to show the concept as wrong. Could you said > cai then as a kind of way to say "Oh yes extremely funny L" > > Lojban does offer a way to sort of say the quoted example but like any joke > is ruined If you tell people the answer, sarcasm is ruined if you let on > that it is sarcasm (other than through a condescending tone) But you've already said how to be sarcastic. When someone says something you disagree with, take that statement to its logical conclusion in absurdity, using a condescending tone. They have a model of you in their minds, that you are not a dumb person who would believe an obvious absurdity. They recognize the logical absurdity and perhaps the tone of voice, causing them to suddenly bridge a gap in their mind between your words and you real mental state. From a certain perspective, that phenomenon is not really linguistic, it's entirely social, based on the models we make of each other's state of mind. It makes no difference which language you're speaking. You can do it exactly the same in Lojban or English. -Eppcott