Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Sun, 20 Jul 2008 14:12:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KKgCp-0007Tx-9R for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Sun, 20 Jul 2008 14:12:35 -0700 Received: from rv-out-0708.google.com ([209.85.198.247]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KKgCi-0007Tp-Sz for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Sun, 20 Jul 2008 14:12:35 -0700 Received: by rv-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id b17so834022rvf.46 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 2008 14:12:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=6cB+N4LGefYT4wnDLv2j7lybmq95yECQNRe0QhQ82Js=; b=wYZNyQpCm34Ns2E8zevLqCepWIOWzOahyGn/UVU+iraBBs6SaXo4Z2m90xd7UaoFDn IpdCK8Q60VB/UgvZXReN94lwcQ8NX2FQJwPwTkrtwZL4QS4VSoEC9e3QblhbK39LzJsC Sje07ZkLos8iwgU1L5vqCbOvjAMOofHk2/V8w= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references; b=jf1atpmByUVS9l+JR1wnwM0kS5ekkZscLldgSNx7VGYRM5dO5fYiwvl8eZcVtmOIgh h0bjWObe/4U/UDv4rLEfPq0xLbTmEE2zPRCmbUksFlUgLt0rrH1HeTtMtWFS4UrTJry9 X8hz7s7dsHarW3JZCPbL7ML0bDfofY+6cS4XY= Received: by 10.141.132.8 with SMTP id j8mr1422273rvn.297.1216588346259; Sun, 20 Jul 2008 14:12:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.96.7 with HTTP; Sun, 20 Jul 2008 14:12:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2008 17:12:26 -0400 From: "Brett Williams" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: modals and references In-Reply-To: <48836991.4090809@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_56976_23814908.1216588346253" References: <48836991.4090809@gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 687 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mungojelly@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners Content-Length: 5943 ------=_Part_56976_23814908.1216588346253 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 7/20/08, peter hering wrote: > > jboski finds the following sentence satisfactory: > mi puzi mo'u cu tinju'i le snavei cukta me'e la'o gy confessions of an > economic hitman gy fi'e la djan.perkins. > > Is this the correct use of the modals me'e and fi'e? My intention is to > say that the books title is 'Confessions of an Economic Hitman' and that the > book's author is John Perkins. How do I know to what me'e and fi'e refer? > > > > Jboski likes it because it's gendra (grammatically correct), but it's not quite smudra (meaning correct, saying what you want it to). The "me'e" and "fi'e" tags are properly formed, but they're tagging the main bridi, putting new places into "tinju'i". The correct sentence might be confusing, so first here's an intermediate sentence: ti snavei cukta me'e la'o gy Confessions of an Economic Hitman gy fi'e la djan.perkins. This is a sound-recording book, with name "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" and inventor John Perkins. In this case the selbri is "snavei cukta", so the new places we've created for name and inventor are places of "cukta", which makes sense. Incidentally, "cukta"'s third place, the "fi" place, is already the author, so you could also use that: "cukta fi la djan.perkins." So now let's take the next step and package those extra places into a sumti: le snavei cukta be me'e la'o gy Confessions of an Economic Hitman gy bei fi'e la djan.perkins. [be'o] [ku] A sound recording book with name "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" and inventor John Perkins. The combination of "be" (and "bei" to continue to another place, and "be'o" is the elidable terminator) with "le" gives us a sumti version of what "ti" referred to in the previous bridi. Now we can take that and put it into the main bridi: (I've taken out the "cu", which isn't wrong but isn't necessary here, and replaced "fi'e" with the more standard "fi".) mi pu zi mo'u tinju'i le snavei cukta be me'e la'o gy Confessions of an Economic Hitman gy bei fi la djan.perkins. I just finished listening to a sound recording of a book named "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" by John Perkins. .a'o do se sidju (I hope you are helped;) .i .e'o ko la .lojban. sarji (support Lojban!) mu'o mi'e .selkik. ------=_Part_56976_23814908.1216588346253 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On 7/20/08, peter hering <pjhering@gmail.com> wrote:
jboski finds the following sentence satisfactory:
mi puzi mo'u cu tinju'i le snavei cukta me'e la'o gy confessions of an economic hitman gy fi'e la djan.perkins.

Is this the correct use of the modals me'e and fi'e?  My intention is to say that the books title is 'Confessions of an Economic Hitman' and that the book's author is John Perkins.  How do I know to what me'e and fi'e refer?




Jboski likes it because it's gendra (grammatically correct), but it's not quite smudra (meaning correct, saying what you want it to).  The "me'e" and "fi'e" tags are properly formed, but they're tagging the main bridi, putting new places into "tinju'i".  The correct sentence might be confusing, so first here's an intermediate sentence:

ti snavei cukta me'e la'o gy Confessions of an Economic Hitman gy fi'e la djan.perkins.
This is a sound-recording book, with name "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" and inventor John Perkins.

In this case the selbri is "snavei cukta", so the new places we've created for name and inventor are places of "cukta", which makes sense.  Incidentally, "cukta"'s third place, the "fi" place, is already the author, so you could also use that: "cukta fi la djan.perkins."
 
So now let's take the next step and package those extra places into a sumti:
 
le snavei cukta be me'e la'o gy Confessions of an Economic Hitman gy bei fi'e la djan.perkins. [be'o] [ku]
A sound recording book with name "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" and inventor John Perkins.
 
The combination of "be" (and "bei" to continue to another place, and "be'o" is the elidable terminator) with "le" gives us a sumti version of what "ti" referred to in the previous bridi.  Now we can take that and put it into the main bridi: (I've taken out the "cu", which isn't wrong but isn't necessary here, and replaced "fi'e" with the more standard "fi".)
 
mi pu zi mo'u tinju'i le snavei cukta be me'e la'o gy Confessions of an Economic Hitman gy bei fi la djan.perkins. 
I just finished listening to a sound recording of a book named "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" by John Perkins.


   .a'o do se sidju     (I hope you are helped;)
.i .e'o ko la .lojban. sarji     (support Lojban!)
 
mu'o mi'e .selkik.
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