Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 04 Aug 2008 09:25:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KQ2sD-0002tM-VF for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2008 09:25:30 -0700 Received: from yw-out-1718.google.com ([74.125.46.157]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KQ2sA-0002t8-9L for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2008 09:25:29 -0700 Received: by yw-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 5so1183291ywm.46 for ; Mon, 04 Aug 2008 09:25:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=WPFhH2SyYB4YeCiIhEA+u0AsYDlFkVReb3BX/DskSPc=; b=jaV/i2sEeRzzpTRy7qduYIZDzo9Dq3C8NOOisDsPUkgzELIdiJffRR4Kcx7NdxUETn Cy46KX7GSA0W6AUGvC03zAGeXLh641M78ja/j3qqBZb39Minm6L0eSLeTrr0sX7IvYxD r8M3fDJseQgmk6UvpMXuR/YD3VF/DYRRZgAm4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references; b=X8/r2d6aDEejeThyAYJAeKl+9iWdHmldH1iF9q5WvAphId4zHtKJ/Ngum4BqO722Zk jcqTJW8byph6Kp32u70UlVtlR830kon0k5gQuKTowERp0JM3+wCj3yaA/enAo80bANng nSzDPUoyLFCbYKOIzumvUXNKyWOSwu+p/Co0o= Received: by 10.142.133.15 with SMTP id g15mr4995678wfd.83.1217867124846; Mon, 04 Aug 2008 09:25:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.51.12 with HTTP; Mon, 4 Aug 2008 09:25:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 12:25:24 -0400 From: "Brett Williams" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: trying poe poetry translation In-Reply-To: <489718EF.5010308@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_23444_4514261.1217867124838" References: <489718EF.5010308@gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 776 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mungojelly@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners Content-Length: 13296 ------=_Part_23444_4514261.1217867124838 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 8/4/08, peter hering wrote: > > 1st stanza of Annabel Lee by Edgar Allan Poe: > > It was many and many a year ago, > In a kingdom by the sea, > That a maiden there lived whom you may know > By the name of ANNABEL LEE; > And this maiden she lived with no other thought > Than to love and be loved by me. coi ninpre hello beginner do fanva za'a lo se nelci be mi pemci You've translated, I see, a poem that I like. .i do pu gasnu so'u ninpre se srera noi mi ba .ai dragau You've made a few beginner errors, which I will try to make right. .i ku'i ko na xanka .i do lo nu cilre cu snada .ia But don't worry. I believe you are succeeding at learning. pu so'isai se nanca First, "so'isai" is actually "so'i [ge'e] sai" == "many, which I feel something strongly about". I'm not sure how to say "very many" as a number, that's an interesting question. One idea that comes to mind is just "so'i so'i", does that work doi jbocevni? Also, let's talk a tiny bit about tense tagging. There are a few different categories of tense tag: - tagging when an event happened relative to another event, using the tense word itself as a tag: "mi klama pu lo nu mi citka" -- I went, before I ate. "do xagji ba lo nu do bajra" -- You're hungry, after you run. (It was confusing to me at first that "pu" means before and "ba" means after; note that the normal tense usage can be understood as before now vs after now.) - tagging how far one event is from another, using the tense intensity markers "zi" "za" "zu" (usually "za") as a tag: "mi klama ba za pa cacra" -- I will go after one hour. "lo nanla cu citka pu za so'u mentu" -- The boy ate a few minutes ago. - tagging how long an event lasts, using the tense duration markers "ze'i" "ze'a" "ze'u" (usually "ze'a") as a tag: "mi bajra ze'a ci cacra" -- I ran for three hours. "mi se cfipu ze'a lo snidu" -- I was confused for a second. So what we want here I think is the second case: "pu zu so'i so'i nanca" > ne'i lo jecta re'o le xamsi You probably want "gugde" for kingdom there (or "se turni" or "se jecta"). Also, this is just two unconnected facts about the bridi: That it's in a kingdom, and by the sea. To put the kingdom itself by the sea, you probably want a "be": "ne'i lo gugde be re'o le xamsi" jy se xabju lo nixli noi ka'e morji > fa do ny me'e la .anabel ausai Putting a "me'e" tag like that says (vaguely something like) that the remembering itself has a name. I would say something like: "jy se xabju lo nixli noi la'a cu'i do morji fi ny no'u la .anabeLIS." (J is inhabited by a girl, who maybe you remember about, and who is Annabel Lee.) .iji'a ti nixli jmive si'o pamei > prami je se prami mi > > "ti" is something you can point at, and a "si'o" abstraction happily forms a tanru, so what you've said there is that you're pointing at a girl-living kind of idea. :) Here's how it occured to me to say it: ".i ji'a ny jmive pensi lo po'o si'o ny prami gi'e se prami vau mi" I thought for a second of translating it differently to take out that gi'e/vau trick, but I thought instead I'd explain it-- so congratulations, you are learning (maybe, if I succeed) the gi'e/vau trick! "gi'e" allows you to put two "tails" onto a bridi, as so: "mi citka" (I eat.) + "mi bajra" (I run.) = "mi citka gi'e bajra" (I eat and run.) "do ninpre" (You're a beginner.) + "do sutcli" (You learn quickly.) = "do ninpre gi'e sutcli" (You're a beginner and learn quickly.) "mi citka lo plise" (I eat an apple.) + "mi bajra lo dargu" (I run on a road.) = "mi citka lo plise gi'e bajra lo dargu" (I eat an apple and run on a road.) So now maybe you're ready for the trick, which is that if you put a "vau" after the second tail, you can put something after and it's attached to *both* tails. For instance: "mi viska lo plise" (I see an apple.) + "mi citka lo plise" (I eat an apple.) = "mi viska gi'e citka vau lo plise" (I see and eat an apple.) "lo prenu cu prami mi" (A person loves me.) + "lo prenu cu se prami mi" (A person is loved by me.) = "lo prenu cu prami gi'e se prami vau mi" (A person loves and is loved by me.) The sumti after the "vau" go into the first available slots, even if they're different in the two tails, for instance: "mi dunda lo plise do" (I give an apple to you.) + "mi nelci do" (I like you.) = "mi dunda lo plise gi'e nelci vau do" (I give you an apple and like you.) (Putting "do" into the x2 of nelci and the x3 of dunda.) "do klama zo'e la .boston." (You went from Boston.) + "do xabju la .boston." (You live in Boston.) = "do klama zo'e gi'e xabju vau la .boston." (You went from and live in Boston.) (Putting "la .boston." into the x2 of xabju and the x3 of klama.) So here's one puzzle sentence for you: .io .i'o .ui .i'e do cilre zo'e gi'e sarji vau la .lojban. ni'o new topic ko ko kurji take care of yourself and be taken care of by yourself (a traditional saying here in Lojbanistan) .i mu'o mi'e .selkik. mi'e se ckiku over, i'm selkik, i'm "The Lock" ------=_Part_23444_4514261.1217867124838 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On 8/4/08, peter hering <pjhering@gmail.com> wrote:
1st stanza of Annabel Lee by Edgar Allan Poe:

It was many and many a year ago,
  In a kingdom by the sea,
That a maiden there lived whom you may know
  By the name of ANNABEL LEE;
And this maiden she lived with no other thought
  Than to love and be loved by me.


coi ninpre
hello beginner

do fanva za'a lo se nelci be mi pemci
You've translated, I see, a poem that I like.

.i do pu gasnu so'u ninpre se srera noi mi ba .ai dragau
You've made a few beginner errors, which I will try to make right.

.i ku'i ko na xanka .i do lo nu cilre cu snada .ia
But don't worry.  I believe you are succeeding at learning.
 

pu so'isai se nanca


First, "so'isai" is actually "so'i [ge'e] sai" == "many, which I feel something strongly about".  I'm not sure how to say "very many" as a number, that's an interesting question.  One idea that comes to mind is just "so'i so'i", does that work doi jbocevni?

Also, let's talk a tiny bit about tense tagging.  There are a few different categories of tense tag:

- tagging when an event happened relative to another event, using the tense word itself as a tag: "mi klama pu lo nu mi citka" -- I went, before I ate.  "do xagji ba lo nu do bajra" -- You're hungry, after you run.  (It was confusing to me at first that "pu" means before and "ba" means after; note that the normal tense usage can be understood as before now vs after now.)

- tagging how far one event is from another, using the tense intensity markers "zi" "za" "zu" (usually "za") as a tag: "mi klama ba za pa cacra" -- I will go after one hour.  "lo nanla cu citka pu za so'u mentu" -- The boy ate a few minutes ago.

- tagging how long an event lasts, using the tense duration markers "ze'i" "ze'a" "ze'u" (usually "ze'a") as a tag: "mi bajra ze'a ci cacra" -- I ran for three hours.  "mi se cfipu ze'a lo snidu" -- I was confused for a second.

So what we want here I think is the second case:

"pu zu so'i so'i nanca"
 
 
  ne'i lo jecta re'o le xamsi


You probably want "gugde" for kingdom there (or "se turni" or "se jecta").  Also, this is just two unconnected facts about the bridi: That it's in a kingdom, and by the sea.  To put the kingdom itself by the sea, you probably want a "be":

"ne'i lo gugde be re'o le xamsi"
 

jy se xabju lo nixli noi ka'e morji
  fa do ny me'e la .anabel ausai


Putting a "me'e" tag like that says (vaguely something like) that the remembering itself has a name.  I would say something like:

"jy se xabju lo nixli noi la'a cu'i
do morji fi ny no'u la .anabeLIS."

(J is inhabited by a girl, who maybe
you remember about, and who is Annabel Lee.)
 

.iji'a ti nixli jmive si'o pamei
  prami je se prami mi


"ti" is something you can point at, and a "si'o" abstraction happily forms a tanru, so what you've said there is that you're pointing at a girl-living kind of idea. :)

Here's how it occured to me to say it:

".i ji'a ny jmive pensi lo po'o si'o
ny prami gi'e se prami vau mi"

I thought for a second of translating it differently to take out that gi'e/vau trick, but I thought instead I'd explain it-- so congratulations, you are learning (maybe, if I succeed) the gi'e/vau trick!  "gi'e" allows you to put two "tails" onto a bridi, as so:  

"mi citka" (I eat.) +
"mi bajra" (I run.) =
"mi citka gi'e bajra" (I eat and run.)

"do ninpre" (You're a beginner.) +
"do sutcli" (You learn quickly.) =
"do ninpre gi'e sutcli" (You're a beginner and learn quickly.)  

"mi citka lo plise" (I eat an apple.) +
"mi bajra lo dargu" (I run on a road.) =
"mi citka lo plise gi'e bajra lo dargu" (I eat an apple and run on a road.)

So now maybe you're ready for the trick, which is that if you put a "vau" after the second tail, you can put something after and it's attached to *both* tails.  For instance:

"mi viska lo plise" (I see an apple.) +
"mi citka lo plise" (I eat an apple.) =
"mi viska gi'e citka vau lo plise" (I see and eat an apple.)

"lo prenu cu prami mi" (A person loves me.) +
"lo prenu cu se prami mi" (A person is loved by me.) =
"lo prenu cu prami gi'e se prami vau mi" (A person loves and is loved by me.)

The sumti after the "vau" go into the first available slots, even if they're different in the two tails, for instance:

"mi dunda lo plise do" (I give an apple to you.) +
"mi nelci do" (I like you.) =
"mi dunda lo plise gi'e nelci vau do" (I give you an apple and like you.)

(Putting "do" into the x2 of nelci and the x3 of dunda.)

"do klama zo'e la .boston." (You went from Boston.) +
"do xabju la .boston." (You live in Boston.) =
"do klama zo'e gi'e xabju vau la .boston." (You went from and live in Boston.)

(Putting "la .boston." into the x2 of xabju and the x3 of klama.)

So here's one puzzle sentence for you:

.io .i'o .ui .i'e do cilre zo'e gi'e sarji vau la .lojban.


ni'o 
new topic

ko ko kurji
take care of yourself and be taken care of by yourself (a traditional saying here in Lojbanistan)

.i mu'o mi'e .selkik. mi'e se ckiku
over, i'm selkik, i'm "The Lock"

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