Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 16 Mar 2009 06:17:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LjChT-00036i-0r for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 16 Mar 2009 06:17:51 -0700 Received: from yw-out-1718.google.com ([74.125.46.157]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LjChM-00036J-N4 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 16 Mar 2009 06:17:50 -0700 Received: by yw-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 4so1968717ywq.46 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 2009 06:17:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=ftCYgZxNJt1XLTN/9AQU9thVDBqiJc3iveQpRJvJA/o=; b=rPvZjz8ETadebGVOvhoZ2R54KTkdfze/ln0xk5G5vbZTaZELU7fndgZFhcV+/Tq0Sc Ly9jwQqmrpIwMBO8DcGu2m/97/VHWqRChGQpsNtTJIjvjRFKJ2Qc1FUVs6tObNGb37gx zqb8QuNsLu7D0QobyepgaIzFlq/wN/CNvxRAg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=eHtYARUrendQUtL+AcGD3w9ZCIvpC7u0IeD6VdQZKY7OQIA5VtsEUO9Z48rgaJI3Z/ lq1VKY+IjcF49iWcuQxTihOoBqM6dTxOAKN8JrLIwMFunuSg7YxGOiMA/Gt8IdoShPHr Yhly5EdKs2aFvZV2tH8yZQNWBsKnTIjQd0EaE= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.75.19 with SMTP id w19mr1202792vcj.110.1237209463323; Mon, 16 Mar 2009 06:17:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4643bbcd0903160609y36b6699dw78cf01afc17032cf@mail.gmail.com> References: <66941D44-2E0E-4A9B-8882-27FE28D2C0F4@zoominternet.net> <96f789a60903151944p381f842v388624e85ecf1f28@mail.gmail.com> <4643bbcd0903160609y36b6699dw78cf01afc17032cf@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 09:17:43 -0400 Message-ID: <5715b9300903160617x1ba9e07dvd9715fa5419900a5@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Q about general statements From: Luke Bergen To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e647ecfc930d8f04653c46c1 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 1417 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners Content-Length: 7340 --0016e647ecfc930d8f04653c46c1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hah, good point. So, maybe Robert was looking for lo'e from the start after all. :) - Luke Bergen On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 9:09 AM, Sara Brand wrote: > Something interesting to note though is the Vatican, which technically is a > city, is not in a country. Therefor it's incorrect to say that all cities > are in countries. > - serys. > > > On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 10:44 PM, Michael Turniansky < > mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote: > >> On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 8:35 PM, Robert Baruch >> wrote: >> > Hi all, >> > >> > I'm totally n00b at Lojban. I'm hoping someone has some advice! >> > >> > I'd like to state that "Cities are in countries." I'm pretty sure this >> > statement is logically meant to say that every particular instance of a >> city >> > is a member of one and only one country. Maybe I'm making a mountain >> out of >> > a molehill and there's some easy way to say this, but here's my thought >> > process: >> > >> > I've been puzzling through chapter 6 of the reference grammar. At first >> I >> > started off with "loi tcadu cu cmima ??? gugde." but the description of >> > "loi" says that this really means "some". The example shown is loi cinfo >> cu >> > xabju le fi'ortu'a. = Lions dwell in Africa, but then it goes on to say >> that >> > this statement says nothing about ALL lions. >> > >> > lo'e doesn't seem to work either, because again, that refers to a >> typical >> > something, and doesn't include ALL somethings. >> > >> > Next we come to "ro", which means all-of, so "ro le tcadu...": all-of >> > the-ones-described-as cities... but that still doesn't quite say what I >> > want: "All cities are in countries" doesn't imply a bidirectional n-to-1 >> > relationship (If Paris is a city, and all cities are in countries, then >> > Paris is in countries -- exists in multiple countries at once.) >> > >> > Okay, the next section seems promising, in that it lists je'abo, that >> which >> > indeed is. So "je'abo le tcadu cu cmima...": That-which-indeed-is >> > one-described-as-a city is a member of... >> > >> > But I'm having trouble with "one and only one country". "pa le gugde", >> one >> > something-described-as-a country" again doesn't imply the bidirectional >> > relationship I'm looking for. >> > >> > Halp? >> >> >> Actually, you basically had it... ro tcadu cu se stizu pa gugde. >> The key is that when there is more then one quantifier, each "scopes" >> over those that follow. You will see this covered in detail in >> chapter 16 of the grammar. So what this means is that for each city, >> there is exactly one country in which it is situated. It does NOT mean >> that all cities are located in the same country (which would be the >> case if you had reversed it as "pa gugde cu stizu ro tcadu"). >> >> Hope that helps? >> >> (P.S. My son's first name is the same as your last name) >> >> --gejyspa >> >> >> >> > --0016e647ecfc930d8f04653c46c1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hah, good point.=A0 So, maybe Robert was looking for lo'e from the star= t after all.=A0 :)

- Luke Bergen


On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 9:09 AM, Sara Br= and <seraneko@gm= ail.com> wrote:
Something interesting to note though is the Vatican, which technically is a= city, is not in a country. Therefor it's incorrect to say that all cit= ies are in countries.

- serys.


On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 10:44 PM, Michael Turniansky <= mturniansky@gmai= l.com> wrote:
On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 8:35 PM, Robert Baruch
<autophi= le@zoominternet.net> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm totally n00b at Lojban. I'm hoping someone has some advice= !
>
> I'd like to state that "Cities are in countries." I'= m pretty sure this
> statement is logically meant to say that every particular instance of = a city
> is a member of one and only one country. =A0Maybe I'm making a mou= ntain out of
> a molehill and there's some easy way to say this, but here's m= y thought
> process:
>
> I've been puzzling through chapter 6 of the reference grammar. At = first I
> started off with "loi tcadu cu cmima ??? gugde." but the des= cription of
> "loi" says that this really means "some". The exam= ple shown is loi cinfo cu
> xabju le fi'ortu'a. =3D Lions dwell in Africa, but then it goe= s on to say that
> this statement says nothing about ALL lions.
>
> lo'e doesn't seem to work either, because again, that refers t= o a typical
> something, and doesn't include ALL somethings.
>
> Next we come to "ro", which means all-of, so "ro le tca= du...": all-of
> the-ones-described-as cities... but that still doesn't quite say w= hat I
> want: "All cities are in countries" doesn't imply a bidi= rectional n-to-1
> relationship (If Paris is a city, and all cities are in countries, the= n
> Paris is in countries -- exists in multiple countries at once.)
>
> Okay, the next section seems promising, in that it lists je'abo, t= hat which
> indeed is. So "je'abo le tcadu cu cmima...": That-which-= indeed-is
> one-described-as-a city is a member of...
>
> But I'm having trouble with "one and only one country". = "pa le gugde", one
> something-described-as-a country" again doesn't imply the bid= irectional
> relationship I'm looking for.
>
> Halp?


=A0Actually, you basically had it... ro tcadu cu se stizu pa g= ugde.
The key is that when there is more =A0then one quantifier, each "scope= s"
over those that follow. =A0You will see this covered in detail in
chapter 16 of the grammar. =A0 So what this means is that for each city, there is exactly one country in which it is situated. It does NOT mean
that all cities are located in the same country (which would be the
case if you had reversed it as "pa gugde cu stizu ro tcadu").

=A0 Hope that helps?

=A0(P.S. =A0My son's first name is the same as your last name)

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa





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