Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Fri, 08 May 2009 15:35:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1M2Yf6-0006Ub-9N for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Fri, 08 May 2009 15:35:24 -0700 Received: from rv-out-0708.google.com ([209.85.198.246]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1M2Yf2-0006UL-Qf for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Fri, 08 May 2009 15:35:24 -0700 Received: by rv-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id b17so2621131rvf.46 for ; Fri, 08 May 2009 15:35:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=z+8x15RW35ZHitVJ+GNwFtwU98487Bg9uOrAGp5eKNw=; b=a0WPRDg+oFVOH6jKjOQZud0ldxMHOkwhGgcstjLTr3hEhnCmWSJVpwljX9cXjdrzCI j35cZGNU8ugoCRnlspUdY1r0W7n6qC52MXDnlSGjsvw5fLPDKN7fCle3TSAsLTYQJN1M 0SV9jN7DPQw5CZmddQkCoPJMGsDf7UmRW2BpY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=PDtOttIU1QKIFyIcn+nWJjjEPLps5yg22VJw7Qktrq1WUIHyfSTOFdlDQZ3ed5eliD JtGBMrP06T1e4YRTKFsjwylkb8TUFUBZZfFg+rMWHPgNnMIHRDidUuyuLatFLYJrC/AX bAMmmoNji1OPgIn3RC0S8YqbnK8qE/M8YolD4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.140.247.13 with SMTP id u13mr1781683rvh.288.1241822120083; Fri, 08 May 2009 15:35:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <7f1d42860905081030u57f0a628x8cdb1695a8a9e8c7@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f1d42860904301145j6f589846p16fff6abd42b4547@mail.gmail.com> <7f1d42860904301207v7a49ab65ke15dbe185d78cf45@mail.gmail.com> <5715b9300904301217y6493ade8k80eb802debf51b28@mail.gmail.com> <200905040346.55611.phma@phma.optus.nu> <7f1d42860905081030u57f0a628x8cdb1695a8a9e8c7@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 18:35:20 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: e257c098dd979bb6 Message-ID: <12d58c160905081535g29b4972aj2449397902d2ce58@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: simple question From: "komfo,amonan" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd106265781be04696e3e12 X-archive-position: 1639 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: komfoamonan@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners Content-Length: 10399 --000e0cd106265781be04696e3e12 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 1:30 PM, Ryan Leach wrote: > My confusion with connectives stems from the way the chapter in CLL on > connectives was laid out. To be honest, I didn't understand most of > it. The chapter made me feel as though I was reading an advanced paper > on physics rather than information about a language. My confusion is > at that dangerous level where I'm not sure what I don't know, much > less what I know. > > If Luke Bergen's description is accurate, then I have a better idea > now. But if not then I'm at the point that a toddler learning to talk > is at. I know that I need a way to express connections, and I have > seen some used, but I have little to now idea about the rules. Luke's description (taking into account the corrections by Minimiscience & Pierre) is accurate. It might be worth mentioning selma'o GIhA, the commonly-used afterthought connectives for bridi-tails: {ta sipna ca lo nicte gi'e gunka ca lo donri} He sleeps by night and works by day. Moreover, members of selma'o JA, besides joining tanru, are also used to join full bridi as follows: {le mlatu cu jinvi lo du'u ri mencre .i je mi tugni fi le se go'i} The cat thinks she's clever, and I agree with that. I would say those four afterthought usages are the most common, & cover the majority of current connective usage. I agree with you btw that connectives are tricky. mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan [Previous discussion follows:] > On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 12:46 AM, Pierre Abbat wrote: > > On Thursday 30 April 2009 15:17:24 Luke Bergen wrote: > >> correct me if I'm wrong anybody but... > >> > >> the way I understand it is that ja/je/jo/ju are used in connecting words > in > >> a tanru. So "lo gerku je nakni" is a tanru (treated as a single sumti > in > >> the bridi) that means "the thing that is a dog and male" whereas if you > had > >> just said "lo gerku nakni" you're being vague and are saying something > more > >> like "the dog type-of male". > > > > Correct. "lo nakni gerku" most likely means "a male dog", but "lo gerku > nakni" > > doesn't have an obvious meaning. > > > >> .a/.e/.o/.u is for saying "these two sumti fall into this place" but > keeps > >> them seperate. So "lo gerku .e nakni" would be "the dog and the male" > not > >> speaking of 1 thing but of two things. > > > > "lo gerku .e nakni" is ungrammatical. "lo gerku .e lo nakni" does not > refer > > necessarily to two things. "lo gerku .e lo nakni cu nenri le kumfa" would > be > > true if the room contains me and a female dog, but would be equally true > if > > the room contains one male dog and nothing else. "jo'u" may exclude the > > single male dog, but I'm not sure. > > > > By the way, the missing member of the selma'o is "ji", which is a > question. > > > >> finally ga/ge/gi/go/gu are just used for giving a reader/listener the > >> knowledge that a logical connective is coming up, like "either A or B" > is > >> "ga .abu gi by" > > > > True. > > > > Pierre > > > >> I'm not sure if in all these cases there should have been a descriptor > >> before the second element in the connective. > >> > >> - Luke Bergen > >> > >> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 3:07 PM, Ryan Leach > wrote: > >> > I'm afraid that chapter just made me more confused when I first read > it. > >> > > >> > On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 11:54 AM, komfo,amonan > > >> > > >> > wrote: > >> > > On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 2:45 PM, Ryan Leach > wrote: > >> > >> I want to say "lemons and also oranges are both citrus fruits" > >> > >> > >> > >> The connective word system for lojban is still messing with my > brain. > >> > >> > >> > >> I think it would go like this > >> > >> > >> > >> "le najnimre ja le pelnimre cu grute" > >> > >> > >> > >> but I'm not sure. Any help on the ands and such for lojban or a > place > >> > >> to look them up even? > >> > > > >> > > lo najnimre .e lo pelnimre cu nimre > >> > > > >> > > Connectives are covered in chapter 14 of the Complete Lojban > Language < > >> > > http://www.lojban.org/publications/reference_grammar/chapter14.html>. > >> > > > >> > > mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan > --000e0cd106265781be04696e3e12 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 1:30 PM, Ryan Leach <rsw.leach@gmail.com= > wrote:
My confusion with connectives stems from the way the chapter in CLL on
connectives was laid out. To be honest, I didn't understand most of
it. The chapter made me feel as though I was reading an advanced paper
on physics rather than information about a language. My confusion is
at that dangerous level where I'm not sure what I don't know, much<= br> less what I know.

If Luke Bergen's description is accurate, then I have a better idea
now. But if not then I'm at the point that a toddler learning to talk is at. I know that I need a way to express connections, and I have
seen some used, but I have little to now idea about the rules.
=

Luke's description (taking into account the corrections by Min= imiscience & Pierre) is accurate. It might be worth mentioning selma= 9;o GIhA, the commonly-used afterthought connectives for bridi-tails:

{ta sipna ca lo nicte gi'e gunka ca lo donri}
He sleeps by night= and works by day.

Moreover, members of selma'o JA, besides join= ing tanru, are also used to join full bridi as follows:

{le mlatu cu= jinvi lo du'u ri mencre .i je mi tugni fi le se go'i}
The cat thinks she's clever, and I agree with that.

I would say = those four afterthought usages are the most common, & cover the majorit= y of current connective usage.

I agree with you btw that connective= s are tricky.

mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan

[Previous discussion follows:]
On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 12:46 AM, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
> On Thursday 30 April 2009 15:17:24 Luke Bergen wrote:
>> correct me if I'm wrong anybody but...
>>
>> the way I understand it is that ja/je/jo/ju are used in connecting= words in
>> a tanru. =C2=A0So "lo gerku je nakni" is a tanru (treate= d as a single sumti in
>> the bridi) that means "the thing that is a dog and male"= whereas if you had
>> just said "lo gerku nakni" you're being vague and ar= e saying something more
>> like "the dog type-of male".
>
> Correct. "lo nakni gerku" most likely means "a male dog= ", but "lo gerku nakni"
> doesn't have an obvious meaning.
>
>> .a/.e/.o/.u is for saying "these two sumti fall into this pla= ce" but keeps
>> them seperate. =C2=A0So "lo gerku .e nakni" would be &qu= ot;the dog and the male" not
>> speaking of 1 thing but of two things.
>
> "lo gerku .e nakni" is ungrammatical. "lo gerku .e lo n= akni" does not refer
> necessarily to two things. "lo gerku .e lo nakni cu nenri le kumf= a" would be
> true if the room contains me and a female dog, but would be equally tr= ue if
> the room contains one male dog and nothing else. "jo'u" = may exclude the
> single male dog, but I'm not sure.
>
> By the way, the missing member of the selma'o is "ji", w= hich is a question.
>
>> finally ga/ge/gi/go/gu are just used for giving a reader/listener = the
>> knowledge that a logical connective is coming up, like "eithe= r A or B" is
>> "ga .abu gi by"
>
> True.
>
> Pierre
>
>> I'm not sure if in all these cases there should have been a de= scriptor
>> before the second element in the connective.
>>
>> - Luke Bergen
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 3:07 PM, Ryan Leach <rsw.leach@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > I'm afraid that chapter just made me more confused when I= first read it.
>> >
>> > On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 11:54 AM, komfo,amonan <komfoamonan@gmail.com>
>> >
>> > wrote:
>> > > On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 2:45 PM, Ryan Leach <rsw.leach@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >> I want to say "lemons and also oranges are both= citrus fruits"
>> > >>
>> > >> The connective word system for lojban is still messi= ng with my brain.
>> > >>
>> > >> I think it would go like this
>> > >>
>> > >> "le najnimre ja le pelnimre cu grute"
>> > >>
>> > >> but I'm not sure. Any help on the ands and such = for lojban or a place
>> > >> to look them up even?
>> > >
>> > > lo najnimre .e lo pelnimre cu nimre
>> > >
>> > > Connectives are covered in chapter 14 of the Complete Lo= jban Language <
>> > > http://www.lojban.org/publication= s/reference_grammar/chapter14.html >.
>> > >
>> > > mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan

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