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Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 00:08:12 -0700
Message-ID: <7f1d42860905100008x7f2b1c76nff141ac8e154565b@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: simple question
From: Ryan Leach <rsw.leach@gmail.com>
To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org
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That all helps significantly. I'm going to give the chapter another
read and try to come up with a written piece to test me understanding.

Thanks everybody

On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 3:35 PM, komfo,amonan <komfoamonan@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 1:30 PM, Ryan Leach <rsw.leach@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> My confusion with connectives stems from the way the chapter in CLL on
>> connectives was laid out. To be honest, I didn't understand most of
>> it. The chapter made me feel as though I was reading an advanced paper
>> on physics rather than information about a language. My confusion is
>> at that dangerous level where I'm not sure what I don't know, much
>> less what I know.
>>
>> If Luke Bergen's description is accurate, then I have a better idea
>> now. But if not then I'm at the point that a toddler learning to talk
>> is at. I know that I need a way to express connections, and I have
>> seen some used, but I have little to now idea about the rules.
>
> Luke's description (taking into account the corrections by Minimiscience &
> Pierre) is accurate. It might be worth mentioning selma'o GIhA, the
> commonly-used afterthought connectives for bridi-tails:
>
> {ta sipna ca lo nicte gi'e gunka ca lo donri}
> He sleeps by night and works by day.
>
> Moreover, members of selma'o JA, besides joining tanru, are also used to
> join full bridi as follows:
>
> {le mlatu cu jinvi lo du'u ri mencre .i je mi tugni fi le se go'i}
> The cat thinks she's clever, and I agree with that.
>
> I would say those four afterthought usages are the most common, & cover the
> majority of current connective usage.
>
> I agree with you btw that connectives are tricky.
>
> mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan
>
> [Previous discussion follows:]
>>
>> On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 12:46 AM, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
>> > On Thursday 30 April 2009 15:17:24 Luke Bergen wrote:
>> >> correct me if I'm wrong anybody but...
>> >>
>> >> the way I understand it is that ja/je/jo/ju are used in connecting
>> >> words in
>> >> a tanru.  So "lo gerku je nakni" is a tanru (treated as a single sumti
>> >> in
>> >> the bridi) that means "the thing that is a dog and male" whereas if you
>> >> had
>> >> just said "lo gerku nakni" you're being vague and are saying something
>> >> more
>> >> like "the dog type-of male".
>> >
>> > Correct. "lo nakni gerku" most likely means "a male dog", but "lo gerku
>> > nakni"
>> > doesn't have an obvious meaning.
>> >
>> >> .a/.e/.o/.u is for saying "these two sumti fall into this place" but
>> >> keeps
>> >> them seperate.  So "lo gerku .e nakni" would be "the dog and the male"
>> >> not
>> >> speaking of 1 thing but of two things.
>> >
>> > "lo gerku .e nakni" is ungrammatical. "lo gerku .e lo nakni" does not
>> > refer
>> > necessarily to two things. "lo gerku .e lo nakni cu nenri le kumfa"
>> > would be
>> > true if the room contains me and a female dog, but would be equally true
>> > if
>> > the room contains one male dog and nothing else. "jo'u" may exclude the
>> > single male dog, but I'm not sure.
>> >
>> > By the way, the missing member of the selma'o is "ji", which is a
>> > question.
>> >
>> >> finally ga/ge/gi/go/gu are just used for giving a reader/listener the
>> >> knowledge that a logical connective is coming up, like "either A or B"
>> >> is
>> >> "ga .abu gi by"
>> >
>> > True.
>> >
>> > Pierre
>> >
>> >> I'm not sure if in all these cases there should have been a descriptor
>> >> before the second element in the connective.
>> >>
>> >> - Luke Bergen
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 3:07 PM, Ryan Leach <rsw.leach@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > I'm afraid that chapter just made me more confused when I first read
>> >> > it.
>> >> >
>> >> > On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 11:54 AM, komfo,amonan
>> >> > <komfoamonan@gmail.com>
>> >> >
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> > > On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 2:45 PM, Ryan Leach <rsw.leach@gmail.com>
>> >> > > wrote:
>> >> > >> I want to say "lemons and also oranges are both citrus fruits"
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> The connective word system for lojban is still messing with my
>> >> > >> brain.
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> I think it would go like this
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> "le najnimre ja le pelnimre cu grute"
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> but I'm not sure. Any help on the ands and such for lojban or a
>> >> > >> place
>> >> > >> to look them up even?
>> >> > >
>> >> > > lo najnimre .e lo pelnimre cu nimre
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Connectives are covered in chapter 14 of the Complete Lojban
>> >> > > Language <
>> >> > > http://www.lojban.org/publications/reference_grammar/chapter14.html
>> >> > > >.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan
>
>