Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 17 Jun 2009 19:58:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MH7pr-0006Il-Rl for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 17 Jun 2009 19:58:44 -0700 Received: from ol.freeshell.org ([192.94.73.20] helo=sdf.lonestar.org) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MH7po-0006Ia-HO for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 17 Jun 2009 19:58:43 -0700 Received: from sdf.lonestar.org (IDENT:jwodder@iceland.freeshell.org [192.94.73.5]) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.14.3/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n5I2wYNv029924 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2009 02:58:34 GMT Received: (from jwodder@localhost) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.14.3/8.12.8/Submit) id n5I2wYkV000492 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 18 Jun 2009 02:58:34 GMT Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 02:58:33 +0000 From: Minimiscience To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: "djuno najo cusku" Message-ID: <20090618025832.GA15964@sdf.lonestar.org> Mail-Followup-To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org References: <23f4e3390906171942q112fe172wccc403b91ba6001b@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <23f4e3390906171942q112fe172wccc403b91ba6001b@mail.gmail.com> Organization: SDF Public Access UNIX System User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.19 (2009-01-05) X-archive-position: 1849 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: minimiscience@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners Content-Length: 1623 de'i li 18 pi'e 06 pi'e 2009 la'o fy. David Gowers .fy. cusku zoi skamyxatra. > I was just looking at > http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=LojbanAphorisms > > and found > "djuno najo cusku" > which supposedly means "Those who say, don't know; those who know, don't > say" > However I translate it more like "those who say, don't know" (and that's > all). > It seems to me that > "djuno jonai cusku" > fits the translation better (djuno XOR cusku -- ie know if not say, say if > not know) .skamyxatra "{najo}" and "{jonai}" are essentially the same thing; "(NOT p) IFF q" is logically equivalent to "p IFF (NOT q)", which are both equivalent to "p XOR q." > of course you could also do the excessively verbose > "djuno najo cusku .e cusku najo djuno" to express the idea. Two things: 1. The logical connectives for a given type of connection ({sumti}, {tanru}, etc.) all have the same precedence and are left-associative. Thus, that utterance corresponds to "((djuno XOR cusku) AND cusku) XOR djuno)", which happens to simplify to "djuno OR cusku," i.e., "{djuno ja cusku}." To get around this, either attach "{bo}" to each "{najo}" (technically, only the second one needs it, but attaching to both is better for symmetry), or put a "{ke}" after the "{.e}." 2. You're mixing a {tanru} connective ("{najo}") with a {sumti} connective ("{.e}") inside a {tanru}. Either change the "{.e}" to "{je}" or otherwise reword the utterance (e.g., something like "{lonu djuno najo cusku .e lonu cusku najo djuno}"). mu'omi'e .kamymecraijun. -- ko kutygau le do skami jbipru bo vreji