Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Thu, 27 Aug 2009 07:58:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MggQb-0004mb-Qo for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Thu, 27 Aug 2009 07:58:18 -0700 Received: from mail-vw0-f193.google.com ([209.85.212.193]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MggQY-0004l2-Ks for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 27 Aug 2009 07:58:17 -0700 Received: by vws31 with SMTP id 31so122232vws.28 for ; Thu, 27 Aug 2009 07:58:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=l4fGxUTCSuRp2NfWgsMjFe+80+Cuzlv7rnDVfI9bicE=; b=WjXhyJfktlULqKOzkSIEBrguG2+TkSgtdVLOc6tJThi2zuq3daDptu111aISE+jN86 CQHIsA9IwRt/8gpyAQXK3rDdvl1PGFwAhEdGzjBpwdJVYD2yDJmfi5ishRAicBAjjrlv tO5XJpeWLQYqBvA8G0Xfuo8knUhJFzz+aV4mk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=JLd9xBtijCIKwwa3wPHlahBEyuuw/NESZGOVpgyKawRS0cN3uGm0/6IR/nOFm3ElrJ IPKkNHeVFlzgFA1qsI5t09ofZebzrYTTNerbwwJF7Uizk+k08K9P2j5gXBNIvnEzgxxr Kjg8F/CHIRw+TJhLvJOrYme7JpfMgBL9Hoie4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.89.195 with SMTP id f3mr12857055vcm.55.1251385088310; Thu, 27 Aug 2009 07:58:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 10:58:08 -0400 Message-ID: <5715b9300908270758l626613fbv66147bdf8001d912@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: jai (now a question about {bo}) From: Luke Bergen To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636310937aa8165047220cb6f X-archive-position: 2136 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners Content-Length: 5723 --001636310937aa8165047220cb6f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ok, I will just keep plugging away and will most likely get it in time. You bring up an interesting side question though. {BO} wtf is going on there? I looked through the CLL and have found that the only "official" definition for it is the tanru use like {lo melbi cmalu bo nixli ckule} to mean the (pretty (little girl) school). But I see it ALL THE TIME after tense words like {pu bo} and {ca bo}. What exactly is this usage? On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 10:29 AM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 7:08 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > > So I have had this concept {jai} explained to me at least 4 times now. > Each > > time I leave the chat room/mailing list/wherever honestly believing that > > "now I get it" only to find a couple days later that it's just as foggy > as > > it was before the explanation. Could I get one last explaniation that > > explains the theory and a bunch of practical examples for the different > > uses? Could these examples have as little other grammer as possible to > > cloud the usage of {jai}? > > > > Additionally, how vital is {jai} to becoming fluent in lojban? > > Hypothetically, if I never did end up "getting it", how badly would that > > effect my "fluency" in lojban? > > > > The problem is that jai, like "bo" has several different uses > depending on where it appears. Judson correctly described jai before > a brivla where it is the "inverse" of tu'a, it makes something whose > x1 normally a abstraction into a place taking a concrete thing that > implies the abstraction (it simultaneously takes what would have > originally been in the x1 place to a place that is onlyspecifiable > with "fai"). Using jai before a modal and a brivla (e.g. "tai bajra") > means that you x1 of the bridi is what would have been in the modal > place of the bridi before (i.e. "ko'a jai tai bajra" = "bajra tai > ko'a") and the old x1 place is again in the "fai" place. > > Can you get away without ever getting the hang of it? Well, it's > sometimes useful when writing, since it allows you to specify things > in sumti you might not have been able to do easily before, but I don't > use it that much (it appears 12 times in "Esther"). However, you > probably need to understand it in order to read other people's stuff. > > --gejyspa > > > > --001636310937aa8165047220cb6f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok, I will just keep plugging away and will most likely get it in time.
=
You bring up an interesting side question though.=A0 {BO}=A0 wtf is goi= ng on there?=A0 I looked through the CLL and have found that the only "= ;official" definition for it is the tanru use like {lo melbi cmalu bo = nixli ckule} to mean the (pretty (little girl) school).=A0 But I see it ALL= THE TIME after tense words like {pu bo} and {ca bo}.=A0 What exactly is th= is usage?

On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 10:29 AM, Michael Tu= rniansky <mtu= rniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 7:08 PM, Luke Bergen<lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
> So I have had this concept {ja= i} explained to me at least 4 times now.=A0 Each
> time I leave the chat room/mailing list/wherever honestly believing th= at
> "now I get it" only to find a couple days later that it'= s just as foggy as
> it was before the explanation.=A0 Could I get one last explaniation th= at
> explains the theory and a bunch of practical examples for the differen= t
> uses?=A0 Could these examples have as little other grammer as possible= to
> cloud the usage of {jai}?
>
> Additionally, how vital is {jai} to becoming fluent in lojban?
> Hypothetically, if I never did end up "getting it", how badl= y would that
> effect my "fluency" in lojban?
>

=A0The problem is that jai, like "bo" has several di= fferent uses
depending on where it appears. =A0Judson correctly described jai before
a brivla where it is the "inverse" of tu'a, it makes somethin= g whose
x1 normally a abstraction into a place taking a concrete thing that
implies the abstraction (it simultaneously takes what would have
originally been in the x1 place to a place that is onlyspecifiable
with "fai"). =A0Using jai before a modal and a brivla (e.g. "= ;tai bajra")
means that you x1 of the bridi is what would have been in the modal
place of the bridi before (i.e. "ko'a jai tai bajra" =3D &quo= t;bajra tai
ko'a") and the old x1 place is again in the "fai" place.=

=A0Can you get away without ever getting the hang of it? =A0Well, it's=
sometimes useful when writing, since it allows you to specify things
in sumti you might not have been able to do easily before, but I don't<= br> use it that much (it appears 12 times in "Esther"). =A0However, y= ou
probably need to understand it in order to read other people's stuff.
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa




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