Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 09 Sep 2009 05:00:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MlLr3-0008U6-Pt for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2009 05:00:54 -0700 Received: from mail-ew0-f216.google.com ([209.85.219.216]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MlLqx-0008QC-G4 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2009 05:00:53 -0700 Received: by ewy12 with SMTP id 12so4874029ewy.0 for ; Wed, 09 Sep 2009 05:00:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=kg9L8Xq3JM0+8THkz6WGopF7RW/FzzJNeDvzCxO2LTQ=; b=MW4rY5GC9x7pbTZ/TwwtRKJNBgnc2pfEQgRSF8/9x9Vw2Zkhc/zGacburIznM9Y5t9 OeCNPBgSOcENY89T1R115X8dsnqyoboGlAAkcnoHX70LzWsuHHEUpdPT+5A+rP71FKG3 icL9tQ6sjmJMV3EGWb9qP8QwZ5KX02e1ls7jw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=Yjh7iZNtcIERsqW/xDzs24rEdv3XpHOGtOiF5FWT7ieEi1F+eni6Su/YlVILJ60kBk SIwG5/ip/sMCXvpiKpGTawz2vMHvlCJyzSZuG9q8tk+zeSrOITeD33vgsDYIwIPUmjdQ 7hdGa54kRXCiHVOrvPIQ2RklDAGvshCQg4hmQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.210.3.14 with SMTP id 14mr4497099ebc.61.1252497636867; Wed, 09 Sep 2009 05:00:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <9DE5DB0988ED6C448E606734F5030D381BED8376@bbcmbmx01.blackpool.gov.uk> References: <9DE5DB0988ED6C448E606734F5030D381BED8376@bbcmbmx01.blackpool.gov.uk> Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2009 14:00:36 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: lojban for beginners From: Johan Pretorius To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0ce03beeba3ec0047323d4da X-archive-position: 2262 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: pretoriusjf@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners Content-Length: 5082 --000e0ce03beeba3ec0047323d4da Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > -----Original Message----- > From: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org > [mailto:lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org]On Behalf Of Alexandre > Dezotti > Sent: 09 September 2009 12:41 > To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org > Subject: [lojban-beginners] lojban for beginners > > > coi rodo > > these lessons seem pretty and interesting, but i'd like to make few > comments. > Unfortunately, the authors have not avoided the use of stereotypical > example, i don't blame them for that since it might be unconcious, > buit it must be corrected. > In pages 41-42, approximately where lu'o is introduced, we find the > following examples > "three men carry a piano" > and > "ten girls kisses somebody (whoever)" > This is a perfect example of the consequence of unconsious sexist > stereotypes : > "men have strength and do hard things" > and > "women fulfill men's sexual demands". > These unfortunate examples (in the same part of the text!) have to be > replaced by non sexist ones. > > Moreover, one might wonder about the use of the word 'facki' (with > cnino sounds like a pleonasm) about columbus travel. > > First of all, let me clarify my involvement by saying that I only discovered Lojban two months ago. Now,I have to ask the question: Don't you have something productive to do instead of thinking up meaningless changes to other people's hard work? On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 1:50 PM, Michael Eaton < michael.eaton@blackpool.gov.uk> wrote: > I'm going to try very hard not to sound acerbic, now (really, I am!) but it > appears as though the unconscious sexist stereotyping is coming from you, > rather than from the author of the examples. That you regard them as sexist > seems, at least to me, to be your own unconscious expectation or expression > of sexism. Also, I don't know a single woman who would haul a piano around > when there were three men there to do it for her ;0) > > Apologies if that sounded in any way harsh; it is less than intentional. > > Good points and diplomatically said. --000e0ce03beeba3ec0047323d4da Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
-----Original Message-----
From: lojban-beginner= s-bounce@lojban.org
[mailto:lojban-beginn= ers-bounce@lojban.org]On Behalf Of Alexandre
Dezotti
Sent: 09 September 2009 12:41
To: lojban-beginners@lojban.= org
Subject: [lojban-beginners] lojban for beginners


coi rodo

these lessons seem pretty and interesting, but i'd like to make few com= ments.
Unfortunately, the authors have not avoided the use of stereotypical
example, i don't blame them for that since it might be unconcious,
buit it must be corrected.
In pages 41-42, approximately where lu'o is introduced, we find the
following =A0examples
"three men carry a piano"
and
"ten girls kisses somebody (whoever)"
This is a perfect example of the consequence of unconsious sexist stereotyp= es :
"men have strength and do hard things"
and
"women fulfill men's sexual demands".
These unfortunate examples (in the same part of the text!) have to be
replaced by non sexist ones.

Moreover, one might wonder about the use of the word 'facki' (with<= br> cnino =A0sounds like a pleonasm) about columbus travel.


First of all, let me clarify my invol= vement by saying that I only discovered Lojban two months ago.

Now,I= have to ask the question: Don't you have something productive to do in= stead of thinking up meaningless changes to other people's hard work?


On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 1:50 PM, Michael Eaton <michael.eaton@blackp= ool.gov.uk> wrote:
I'm going to try very hard not to sound acerbic, now (really, I am!) but it appears as though the unconscious sexist stereotyping is coming from you, rather than from the author of the examples. That you regard them as sexist seems, at least to me, to be your own unconscious expectation or expression of sexism. Also, I don't know a single woman who would haul a piano around when there were three men there to do it for her ;0)
Apologies if that sounded in any way harsh; it is less than intentional.
Good points and diplomatically said.


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