Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Fri, 25 Sep 2009 13:56:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MrHpw-0000tV-N7 for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Fri, 25 Sep 2009 13:56:16 -0700 Received: from mail-bw0-f211.google.com ([209.85.218.211]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MrHpt-0000sn-Ec for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Fri, 25 Sep 2009 13:56:16 -0700 Received: by bwz7 with SMTP id 7so2371679bwz.34 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 2009 13:56:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=J2IOymI5BVBL7xrCCRTKOp0VO6OeWuNNlhAxj27GTrs=; b=AhZ41KUJQSRwd13fBJb2SGHoKbn4ztGHzMfJ6a2KDtBV/gnMG/xIKWS3tDvZtvBlEw DvkauaegO9Dy7CVmotDHkSPS15oYO2gTpvaP9Rv8WgrmtLvaaTkoHirBrcJ6mfp7leCF j4xgDXG24dkTQaHSJuKoIEwEGTp+cOg4NURrU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=YIKdYepZasgS6p6kZ4hmxOJ8LqjFWsnBbpDpx5DcPcCyFVO1dxBbe6fODj96OjSzLw RB30gyfiCoYEW/qju7Nn3s0GLvDOuiwmhs5cddgFIGl60Iv5iM53UqS+aBDdXDadjLi0 YTJBfylvx9kjtD5vwjLC8mtAxNsMau3vHnld0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.103.122.5 with SMTP id z5mr231328mum.11.1253912166917; Fri, 25 Sep 2009 13:56:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <74145aa00909250740s14ae670r4ba0536ea04ccf48@mail.gmail.com> <4de8c3930909251021t1c5c0142i24d4c859dffdeaf@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 22:56:06 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: c56bd064a2862c31 Message-ID: <4de8c3930909251356x52c4b92cld4571097b2564d62@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=98There?= is the view from =?UTF-8?Q?here=E2=80=99?= question From: tijlan To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-archive-position: 2409 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jbotijlan@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners Content-Length: 1381 2009/9/25 Ivo Doko : > 2009/9/25 tijlan : >> That is ungrammatical. Did you mean "le jvinu pe vi ragve fe do" or >> "le jvinu be vi ragve fe do"? > > I'm kind of a beginner so I'm not really sure. Could you explain the > difference between "le jvinu pe vi ragve fe do" and "le jvinu be vi > ragve fe do", please? "pe" (of selma'o GOI) attaches a term (listed below) to a sumti (e.g. le jvinu). "be" (of selma'o BE) inserts a term into a selbri (e.g. jvinu). "pe ti" is on the preceding sumti; "be ti" is on the preceding selbri -- or on its place structure, and that's why in "le jvinu be ti" the "ti" becomes the x2 of "jvinu". {le jvinu} + {ti} = le jvinu pe ti le {jvinu + ti} = le jvinu be ti "ti" in the latter has a specific destination on the place structure of "jvinu" (x2) and thus semantically specific. In the former, "ti" is kind of floating on the sumti "le jvinu" and thus semantically unspecific (apart from the distinction you can make in relation to other GOI such as "ne", "po", "po'e"). The utility of "pe" (or other GOI) becomes obvious when you want to attach a term to a non-selbri-based sumti. You cannot use "be" to attach "ti" to "la djan.", for example, because "djan." is not a selbri; you want "pe". Types of term: sumti (e.g. ti) tag sumti (e.g. vi ti) tag KU (e.g. vi ku) NA KU (e.g. na ku) tijlan