DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;        d=gmail.com; s=gamma;        h=sender:message-id:from:to:in-reply-to:content-type         :content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:date:references         :x-mailer;        b=u3DMASXgvbnhQ2CF/GI8V07vm+ldNtc6j14gKfz/Y/EnHHioRE212drd2/728zHDeU         FEvhZq77K/HpvEhYK32si9Tm+zOGTS+jPUrAwEubrzYXUsSa3nrlj0oazDnn9lZs0xXj         SDU72PyEl/ocREpIYIDk2nQro5r3903ryYZu8=
Message-Id: <841CCF21-32AB-4330-8199-39FDAEDAC905@choi.name>
From: Joshua Choi <joshua@choi.name>
To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org
In-Reply-To: <249d5b950911240937od3a95e8p86eefec8e933abe9@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936)
Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: sel- vs se
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:21:06 -0700
References: <FEC6717B-A381-4F20-B485-FD971D68A700@choi.name>	 <200911221105.31626.phma@phma.optus.nu>	 <36F41326-A754-44CD-BAB7-D998075C54CE@choi.name>	 <12d58c160911221005xc2e53d3q24f9d0d09ba2024@mail.gmail.com>	 <7D2D5FD9-4849-45F3-8540-EC57C0B9C026@choi.name>	 <5715b9300911221432y2f9724a4nb2d5156cfc2050ac@mail.gmail.com>	 <249d5b950911221839p792181a5rf7a3ad83a7836cfb@mail.gmail.com>	 <A8D724E0-0FEE-46CD-96AF-207AECD9C238@choi.name> <249d5b950911240937od3a95e8p86eefec8e933abe9@mail.gmail.com>
Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org
Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org
Precedence: bulk
Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org
Content-Length: 5820

Yes, but one important thing about flash cards is that it's better to  
split concepts into cards as atomically as possible, to be able to  
answer them as quickly as possible. It's not good to have one card  
devoted to an entire word with all its places. I'm trying to memorize  
places more efficiently by separating each word's place into a  
separate flash card. The three choices below are the three ways that I  
thought of doing that.

Which one I would choose would depend mostly on the usage of sel- vs  
se. It kind of seems that "se klama", etc. are used more than  
"selkla", etc., so I think I might go for using se, te, ve, and xe  
rather than sel-, ter-, and so on. But I'd like to hear more on how  
"selkla", etc. are used at all in Lojban.

On 24 November 2009, at 10:37 AM, Steven Lytle wrote:

> If you know "klama", then you already know "te klama", so the only  
> challenge is to be able to recognize it as "terkla".
> My position is that if you don't know all the places, then you don't  
> really know the whole word.
>
> stevo
>
> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 2:26 PM, Joshua Choi <joshua@choi.name> wrote:
> Yes, that's it. The reason why I'm asking is that I'm learning  
> Lojban vocabulary using flash cards, and I'm deciding on how to deal  
> with gismu sumti.
>
> I thought of three ways. A card could look like this:
>  FRONT:
>  klama
>  a: goer
>  e: destination
>  i: [...]
>  o: route
>  u: vehicle
>  BACK:
>  origin of going
>
> Or this:
>  FRONT:
>  te klama
>  BACK:
>  origin of going
>
> Or this:
>  FRONT:
>  terkla
>  BACK:
>  origin of going
>
> I decided to eliminate the first one because it has more clutter  
> than is necessary to answer the question and recall the answer. So I  
> was choosing between the second and third one. The third one has an  
> added consequence of often quizzing a gismu's rafsi too, which may  
> be positive or negative, depending on if I want to memorize rafsi  
> separately or simultaneously.
>
> So the tipping point for me would be which—"terkla" or "te klama"—is  
> used more, or if there is a difference between the two phrases'  
> usages. I still don't know which I'm going to use.
>
> mu'omi'e symuyn
>
>
> On 22 November 2009, at 7:39 PM, Steven Lytle wrote:
>
> The question wasn't about lujvo vs. tanru.
> It was about the difference between SE GISMU and lujvo based on SE  
> GISMU (SELGIhU?). I think they're identical in meaning, and I prefer  
> SE GISMU because they're just GISMU with places.
> I suppose it's possible to have a lujvo that looks like SELGIhU but  
> isn't by leaving out parts of the underlying tanru, but I would  
> consider that very bad form.
> It's also possible that the SELGIhU, being a lujvo, has a specific  
> meaning not identical to the SE GISMU it seems to be based on, but  
> again, I would consider that very bad form.
> It's possible that what I consider bad form is irrelevant, too.
> stevo
>
> On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 5:32 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>  
> wrote:
> Yes.  lujvo have explicit definitions.  They have exactly the same  
> precision as a gismu does.  Tanru, however, are vague and can mean  
> many things based on context.
>
> So for instance, {retsku} means "x1 asks/puts question x2 (sedu'u/ 
> text/lu'e concept) of/to x3 via expressive medium x4 about subject  
> x5".
>
> While, on the other hand, {preti cusku} is more vague, like  
> "question type of sayer".
>
> Another difference is that sometimes when constructing lujvo, people  
> will leave out bits for the sake of brevity.  I can't think of any  
> examples off the top of my head.  Maybe someone else can chime in  
> with a good example where the {sel} bit is chopped out to make it  
> shorter.
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 4:00 PM, Joshua Choi <joshua@choi.name> wrote:
> Oops, I didn't mean the difference between two lujvo. I meant  
> "selbo'e" and "se brode", one being the lowest-scoring lujvo using  
> "sel", and the other being the cmavo followed by the gismu. Is there  
> any difference in usage between using the lujvo and using the cmavo 
> +gismu?
>
>
> On 22 November 2009, at 11:05 AM, komfo,amonan wrote:
>
>
> On 22 November 2009, at 9:05 AM, Pierre Abbat wrote:
>
> On Saturday 21 November 2009 14:44:45 Joshua Choi wrote:
> Got a couple of usages question on the difference between the se cmavo
> and the sel rafsi. Is there any difference between "ti se citka mi"
> and "ti selcti mi"? Or "ta se klani" and "ta selklani"? One forms
> phrases—don't know if you'd call them "tanru"—and the other forms  
> words
> —which probably count as lujvo. And don't lujvo have "specified"
> meanings that are more specific than their corresponding tanru? Does
> that affect words like selcti?
>
> Generally there's no difference, as "se citka" is not a tanru. If  
> "seltci"
> (or "selbo'e") is used in a lujvo, though, then there is a
> difference. "selcajlanci" means "flag that symbolizes something  
> traded",
> i.e. "trademark", whereas "se canja lanci" could mean that, and  
> could also
> mean "flag that is traded".
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Joshua Choi <joshua@choi.name>  
> wrote:
> Thanks for the reply; I see now. So when it comes to the difference  
> between pairs like "selbrode" and "selbo'e", there's no difference  
> at all, right? They're semantically equivalent, and in this case  
> they even have the same amount of syllables.
>
> So which one do people tend to use? Is there a rule of pragmatics,  
> or does one not have to care at all about it?
>
> Those two are semantically identical lujvo, differing only in form.  
> The canonical form of any lujvo is the one with the lowest score  
> among the possible rafsi combinations according to the lujvo scoring  
> algorithm (CLL 4:12).
>
> mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>