Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 02 Nov 2009 06:47:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1N4yBN-0007DU-RJ for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 06:47:00 -0800 Received: from mail-yw0-f204.google.com ([209.85.211.204]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1N4yBJ-0007Cr-NQ for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 06:46:57 -0800 Received: by ywh42 with SMTP id 42so4671228ywh.28 for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 06:46:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=VHcrHwGcX96OZJfuYAgxRP2ogfA7UDTCqIsyKPI7fyk=; b=GaCvuNfFwfKPqrix0l6Gjd28YkJkqEpcEQBJskCGZ0YD47vNSqd5WW6qWco5D21s3a UCkR2JPXw46UEuiIeFEktMGsvo++tB8NOI8L6BijAMMpbDZQbqPUoDzxxlQc9pNat100 O8zBPtR50jBMw0kfK8446sYoJmSLzm5MFjLgQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=WkR/+CwI/MBY2PTQ74B2uOe6E6tUuGbm5NrWHBKMlGBv7J4rNqKYTq4yNq3+6bqI+n AA3k2NLbSRnCCGsgLPAxIyvExMjtEQ0vbZwEn6N16inOJrqsomjR6dqbkLQpyLc6R0ge lP6vBQXy9BpaMgR44VmL6boHLYEP0iKQFd9KY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.150.45.18 with SMTP id s18mr8252902ybs.20.1257173207229; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 06:46:47 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <96f789a60911020636j317298ddy6474542987291337@mail.gmail.com> References: <27513e550910291914p6c2f06cdi4c6ee61a8d056744@mail.gmail.com> <200910300049.45845.phma@phma.optus.nu> <27513e550910300836x72c7bb57jced0b80f9415fbf3@mail.gmail.com> <200910301201.33462.phma@phma.optus.nu> <27513e550910301724t26c26060sae87b3b6ed5358ca@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60911020636j317298ddy6474542987291337@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 09:46:47 -0500 Message-ID: <5715b9300911020646r15e26ce5m1b5e141bf1876251@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: n00b translation request From: Luke Bergen To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd330307024fc047764729e X-archive-position: 2531 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners Content-Length: 6093 --000e0cd330307024fc047764729e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 ahh, I always forget that the translation result is x5 of fanva. {fanva} kind of breaks the mold of lojban words that if it sounds normal to say the english "the ____" then the x1 is probably "x1 is a _____ with blah blah done by blah blah etc..." (e.g. {gerku}, {cukta}, {mukti} etc...}. I always want to use it like: {x1 is a translation of work x2 from source language x3 into target language x4 translated by x5} or something like that. On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 9:36 AM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 8:24 PM, Oren wrote: > > The two sentences below were not my doing! These were the proposed > earlier > > in the thread by Pierre Abbat and Luke Bergen, respectively. > > > > Both contain a "sel" prefix, which I know has something to do with a > "second > > conversion," but in this context, I can't find an explanation for why > it's > > necessary-- we're just making a tanru right? I've skimmed both CLL and > > level 0. If someone can help me understand why 'sel-' is added to these, > I > > would be very grateful! > > > > mu'omi'e .ku'us. > > > > On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 00:01, Pierre Abbat wrote: > >> > >> > 1. *.i nalcertu ke fanva selcpedu > >> > .i lo to'e certu selfanva bo cpedu* > >> > > >> > Can someone explain or point me to where I can learn about why > adding > >> > 'sel' is necessary? > >> > >> I think you're confusing the place structures of "cpedu" and "preti". lu > >> ma > >> zasti? li'u preti zo'e mi do .iku'i mi cpedu lu ko ga'orgau le canko > li'u > >> do. > > > > "nalcertu ke fanva cpedu" would mean "a non-expert > (translator-requester)", since a cpedu is someone who requests > something. Since you were translating "a novice translation request" > you wanted "selcpedu", the thing being requested, not "cpedu" the > requester. Similarly, "lo to'e certu fanva bo cpedu" would mean a "a > novice (translator-requester)", whereas "lo to'e certu selfanva bo > cpedu" means a novice (translated-from requester), since a fanva is > one who translates, but a selfanva is what they are translating. > Although arguably, both of these are wrong, at it really should be, > IMO "to'e certu ke nunfanva selcpedu" or "to'e certu ke xelfanva > selcpedu" since you are requesting either an event of translating > (the first version) or the a translation result (the second version). > > --gejyspa > > > > --000e0cd330307024fc047764729e Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ahh, I always forget that the translation result is x5 of fanva.=A0 {fanva}= kind of breaks the mold of lojban words that if it sounds normal to say th= e english "the ____" then the x1 is probably "x1 is a _____ = with blah blah done by blah blah etc..."=A0 (e.g. {gerku}, {cukta}, {m= ukti} etc...}.=A0 I always want to use it like:=A0 {x1 is a translation of = work x2 from source language x3 into target language x4 translated by x5} o= r something like that.

On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 9:36 AM, Michael Turn= iansky <mturn= iansky@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 8:24 PM, Oren <= ;get.oren@gmail.com> wrote: > The two sentences below were not my doing! These were the proposed ear= lier
> in the thread by Pierre Abbat and Luke Bergen, respectively.
>
> Both contain a "sel" prefix, which I know has something to d= o with a "second
> conversion," but in this context, I can't find an explanation= for why it's
> necessary-- we're just making a tanru right? I've=A0 skimmed b= oth CLL and
> level 0. If someone can help me understand why 'sel-' is added= to these, I
> would be very grateful!
>
> mu'omi'e .ku'us.
>
> On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 00:01, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
>>
>> > =A0 =A01. *.i nalcertu ke fanva selcpedu
>> > =A0 =A0.i lo to'e certu selfanva bo cpedu*
>> >
>> > =A0 =A0Can someone explain or point me to where I can learn a= bout why adding
>> > =A0 =A0'sel' is necessary?
>>
>> I think you're confusing the place structures of "cpedu&q= uot; and "preti". lu
>> ma
>> zasti? li'u preti zo'e mi do .iku'i mi cpedu lu ko ga&= #39;orgau le canko li'u
>> do.
>

=A0"nalcertu ke fanva cpedu" would mean "a non-= expert
(translator-requester)", since a cpedu is someone who requests
something. =A0Since you were translating "a novice translation request= "
you wanted "selcpedu", the thing being requested, not "cpedu= " the
requester. Similarly, "lo to'e certu fanva bo cpedu" would me= an a "a
novice (translator-requester)", whereas "lo to'e certu selfan= va bo
cpedu" means a novice (translated-from requester), since a fanva is one who translates, but a selfanva is what they are translating.
Although arguably, both of these are wrong, at it really should be,
IMO "to'e certu ke nunfanva selcpedu" or "to'e certu= ke xelfanva
selcpedu" since you are requesting either =A0an event of translating (the first version) or the a translation result (the second version).

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa




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