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Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 21:27:35 -0500
Message-ID: <249d5b950912171827l693d272cx56d392b93493bfd2@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: A question about gismu definitions
From: Steven Lytle <lytlesw@gmail.com>
To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org
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Christopher,
Having just become acquainted with you on the Klingon list, I'm pleased to
see you here too.

stevo aka lay'tel SIvten

On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 9:10 PM, Christopher Doty <suomichris@gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I'm new to Lojban, but think it's very cool.  I'm a PhD student in
> linguistics, and it's quite fun to think about how different (and
> similar) Lojban is from natural languages.
>
> As I'm starting to learn gismu, though, I have a couple of question
> about definitions.  Consider the set of gismu below, along with their
> definitions:
>
> remna - x1 is a human/human being/man (non-specific gender-free
> sense); (adjective:) x1 is human
> prenu - x1 is a person/people (noun) [not necessarily human]; x1
> displays personality/a persona
> remsmi - r1 is humanoid/man-like in quality r2
> remsmismani - x1 is an ape of species x2.
> ninmu - x1 is a woman/women; x1 is a female humanoid person [not
> necessarily adult]
> nanmu -  x1 is a man/men; x1 is a male humanoid person [not necessarily
> adult]
>
> My first question is, essentially, this: what are criteria for using
> these various forms?  Is remsmi not to be used with human beings, but
> only non-human things which have some resemblance to human beings?
> (And what is "man" doing in there? Is that the "non-gender specific"
> man as in remna?) When can you use prenu with non-humans?  When
> they're sentient aliens or computers?  Can you use this for apes as
> well, even though a separate set of terms exists for apes?
>
> I suppose that my issue with this is that I'm not clear how we're
> defining 'person/people' and 'humanoid' here.  Does personhood imply
> sentience? Or only that something is alive?  Or is something like
> ninmu only used with things which are demonstrably both physically and
> mentally similar to human beings?
>
> Perhaps I'm overthinking this a bit in an effort to be truly
> "logical."  It seems like including these bits in the definition are
> intended to cover things like characters/computer game avatars/etc.,
> as well as possibly future non-human intelligences, but it seems a bit
> messy at the moment (perhaps because all such non-human entities are
> currently fictional/hypothetical).
>
> Relatedly, I'm wondering about the definitions of some gismu, like
> dunda below, that list multiple English words in the definition.
>
> dunda - x1 [donor] gives/donates gift/present x2 to
> recipient/beneficiary x3 [without payment/exchange].
>
> Am I correct in assuming that this is an effort to provide a sense of
> the concepts that the gismu covers, and not simply a list of English
> equivalents? That is, can we use dunda in ANY place where a transfer
> of an object takes place without recompense (e.g., bequeath, transmit
> (as knowledge across generations), will, etc.), or ONLY in cases where
> English specifically uses "donate" or "give?"
>
> Thanks in advance! I'm sure y'all'll be got lots more of these
> esoteric types of questions from me in the future :p
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>

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<div>Christopher,</div>
<div>Having just become acquainted with you on the Klingon list, I&#39;m pl=
eased to see you here too.</div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>stevo aka lay&#39;tel SIvten<br><br></div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 9:10 PM, Christopher Dot=
y <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:suomichris@gmail.com">suomichris@=
gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">Hi all,<br><br>I&#39;m new to Lo=
jban, but think it&#39;s very cool. =A0I&#39;m a PhD student in<br>linguist=
ics, and it&#39;s quite fun to think about how different (and<br>
similar) Lojban is from natural languages.<br><br>As I&#39;m starting to le=
arn gismu, though, I have a couple of question<br>about definitions. =A0Con=
sider the set of gismu below, along with their<br>definitions:<br><br>remna=
 - x1 is a human/human being/man (non-specific gender-free<br>
sense); (adjective:) x1 is human<br>prenu - x1 is a person/people (noun) [n=
ot necessarily human]; x1<br>displays personality/a persona<br>remsmi - r1 =
is humanoid/man-like in quality r2<br>remsmismani - x1 is an ape of species=
 x2.<br>
ninmu - x1 is a woman/women; x1 is a female humanoid person [not<br>necessa=
rily adult]<br>nanmu - =A0x1 is a man/men; x1 is a male humanoid person [no=
t necessarily adult]<br><br>My first question is, essentially, this: what a=
re criteria for using<br>
these various forms? =A0Is remsmi not to be used with human beings, but<br>=
only non-human things which have some resemblance to human beings?<br>(And =
what is &quot;man&quot; doing in there? Is that the &quot;non-gender specif=
ic&quot;<br>
man as in remna?) When can you use prenu with non-humans? =A0When<br>they&#=
39;re sentient aliens or computers? =A0Can you use this for apes as<br>well=
, even though a separate set of terms exists for apes?<br><br>I suppose tha=
t my issue with this is that I&#39;m not clear how we&#39;re<br>
defining &#39;person/people&#39; and &#39;humanoid&#39; here. =A0Does perso=
nhood imply<br>sentience? Or only that something is alive? =A0Or is somethi=
ng like<br>ninmu only used with things which are demonstrably both physical=
ly and<br>
mentally similar to human beings?<br><br>Perhaps I&#39;m overthinking this =
a bit in an effort to be truly<br>&quot;logical.&quot; =A0It seems like inc=
luding these bits in the definition are<br>intended to cover things like ch=
aracters/computer game avatars/etc.,<br>
as well as possibly future non-human intelligences, but it seems a bit<br>m=
essy at the moment (perhaps because all such non-human entities are<br>curr=
ently fictional/hypothetical).<br><br>Relatedly, I&#39;m wondering about th=
e definitions of some gismu, like<br>
dunda below, that list multiple English words in the definition.<br><br>dun=
da - x1 [donor] gives/donates gift/present x2 to<br>recipient/beneficiary x=
3 [without payment/exchange].<br><br>Am I correct in assuming that this is =
an effort to provide a sense of<br>
the concepts that the gismu covers, and not simply a list of English<br>equ=
ivalents? That is, can we use dunda in ANY place where a transfer<br>of an =
object takes place without recompense (e.g., bequeath, transmit<br>(as know=
ledge across generations), will, etc.), or ONLY in cases where<br>
English specifically uses &quot;donate&quot; or &quot;give?&quot;<br><br>Th=
anks in advance! I&#39;m sure y&#39;all&#39;ll be got lots more of these<br=
>esoteric types of questions from me in the future :p<br><br>Chris<br><br>
<br><br></blockquote></div><br>

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