Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 21 Dec 2009 17:13:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NMtJs-0005vv-SB for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 17:13:49 -0800 Received: from mail-px0-f198.google.com ([209.85.216.198]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NMtJi-0005nR-Kp for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 17:13:42 -0800 Received: by pxi36 with SMTP id 36so3814774pxi.26 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 17:13:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=3d8787vuNMBTBSmx323tXzX/i2n9Hwc1ecy49jUBZ2w=; b=fX1ckpHsHzCosVDkqh619aHw6Z4dPTP03+/2OChNmxf0IeWeSzC3SseSohG4P3f9qh B3uhwr9ngftVkanvwhfqacV5ptv3dW2vFw43yUbJ+E/NWPqGwtzvDHw1nDYWImJQCPsG 1IOXM1ppwJ/FIjdglistZBEZ72vrFHe43irUA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=He26c+wZ25HTWFAfpJ7o0gSM+0oxBdDXuQh8CoDKVIrekBlVR5R3IT0pMhPF9RniSB VH5vrn5ja0bcabtvr6oQNtOndfuROVmp6cRFt+wpB8zEkFxBnda06klm5VL7Bja0nJD7 MNAM7rYNs+74W7Aq+GuATcb75ihWBfH1Ye3BY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.249.2 with SMTP id w2mr5258746wfh.198.1261444412126; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 17:13:32 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <110822.32761.qm@web88005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <230918.3024.qm@web88005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <33073.79.75.29.254.1261327629.squirrel@mailgate.denbridgemarine.com> <27513e550912201755p5b49a95dg224f022e030644ed@mail.gmail.com> <200912211327.37550.phma@phma.optus.nu> <96f789a60912211122g130717c8ja5edfa04d77a0825@mail.gmail.com> <110822.32761.qm@web88005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> From: Oren Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 09:13:11 +0800 Message-ID: <27513e550912211713s6a3b85c2ya5d86d86de39d4c2@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Site for beginners was: vlatai and logflash To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00504502ce9516b529047b46ea74 X-archive-position: 2695 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: get.oren@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners Content-Length: 8734 --00504502ce9516b529047b46ea74 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Part of offering help to language learners is presenting flexible techniques; some people prefer flashcards, some prefer fill-in-the-blank questions, some like to read a lot of examples. Some like to see grammar spelled out, some like to grab colloquial usage and eventually come to understand the rules. Some people don't really know their preference. One idea for the simplest data model I can imagine that allows freedom in learning is: Lojban Sentence Submission (by anyone): lojban, natlang, and comments on on= e page Use a blog-like web-page format of sentence case-studies with associated comments to provide a web-accessible learning database for lojbanistas (anyone interested in lojban). Scenario 1 * Lojbanists who already know their stuff can put submit lojban sentences with either/both linguistic, thorough glosses and natural language (possibl= y multilingual) renditions. * Beginners can search by keyword, vocab word, grammar, etc. They find the sentence, they ask a question in the comments, and something like what happens on this mailing list gets recorded in an easily visible webpage for= m Scenario 2 * Beginners can submit a lojban sentence and an attempt at natlang translation, or vice-versa, or even just a natlang sentence they want to know how to say in lojban. * Lojbanists fill it in, and use the comments to discuss, like this mailin= g list, any tricky grammar points etc. Scenario 3 (maybe a bit more fun) * Same as scenario 1 or 2, except the lojban sentence leaves a _____ blank to be filled in. A lojbanist might use this to write a 'textbook problem' o= r to overcome jolban writers block, and a beginner can use this technique to answer questions, or test the expressive limits of lojban. Several days ago I mailed a data model for a language-lesson format. This solution seems to be a bit more tailored to lojban, because it seems the bulk of lojban conversation takes this form naturally (a text excerpt, then a collaborative linguistic dissection with interspersed grammar questions). The two structures could overlap (sentences as a searchable content type ar= e used in both). Any thoughts/suggestions? mu'o mi'e .ku'us. On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 04:02, A. PIEKARSKI wrote: > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Michael Turniansky > > To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org > > Sent: Mon, December 21, 2009 2:22:42 PM > > Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Site for beginners was: vlatai and > logflash > > > > On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 1:27 PM, Pierre Abbat wrote: > > > > > There's a standard sentence-glossing format among linguists: You writ= e > a > > > sentence in the language being studied, then translate each morpheme, > putting > > > cmavo and their rafsi in caps. I'd like to see this done to Lojban > sentences, > > > or in Lojban to sentences of other languages. E.g.: > > > > > > i le nu se citka cu funca le tordu sastu'u lacpu > > > SENT.SEP DEF EVENT PASS2 eat PRED.MARK luck.of DEF short grass-tube > pull > > > The event of being eaten is the luck of the short straw puller. > > > > > > On ?tiras =E0 la courte paille pour savoir qui serait mang=E9. > > > INDEF.PRON pull-PAST.2SING at/to DEF-FEM short-FEM straw for know-INF > who > > > be-COND-3SING eat-PP-MASC > > > Someone pull the short straw to know who would be eaten. > > > > > > > > > If I had seen those notations when I wanted to start learning > > lojban, I'd have been out the revolving door so fast, the wind would > > have knocked over even la nikyge'u. Think middle/junior high > > schooler, not graduate student in linguistics, Pierre, to make things > > more friendly. > > > > I absolutely agree with the last comment above. I had a hard time > understanding > what you wrote, Pierre! > > totus > > > > > --00504502ce9516b529047b46ea74 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Part of offering help to language learners is presenting f= lexible techniques; some people prefer flashcards, some prefer fill-in-the-= blank questions, some like to read a lot of examples. Some like to see gram= mar spelled out, some like to grab colloquial usage and eventually come to = understand the rules. Some people don't really know their preference.
One idea for the simplest data model I can imagine that allows freedom = in learning is:

Lojban Sentence Submission (by anyone): lojban, natl= ang, and comments on one page
Use a blog-like web-page format of sentenc= e case-studies with associated comments to provide a web-accessible learnin= g database for lojbanistas (anyone interested in lojban).

Scenario 1
=A0* Lojbanists who already know their stuff can put subm= it lojban sentences with either/both linguistic, thorough glosses and natur= al language (possibly multilingual) renditions.
=A0* Beginners can searc= h by keyword, vocab word, grammar, etc. They find the sentence, they ask a = question in the comments, and something like what happens on this mailing l= ist gets recorded in an easily visible webpage form

Scenario 2
=A0* Beginners can submit a lojban sentence and an attemp= t at natlang translation, or vice-versa, or even just a natlang sentence th= ey want to know how to say in lojban.
=A0* Lojbanists fill it in, and u= se the comments to discuss, like this mailing list, any tricky grammar poin= ts etc.

Scenario 3
(maybe a bit more fun)
=A0* Same as scenario 1 or 2, e= xcept the lojban sentence leaves a _____ blank to be filled in. A lojbanist= might use this to write a 'textbook problem' or to overcome jolban= writers block, and a beginner can use this technique to answer questions, = or test the expressive limits of lojban.

Several days ago I mailed a data model for a language-lesson format. Th= is solution seems to be a bit more tailored to lojban, because it seems the= bulk of lojban conversation takes this form naturally (a text excerpt, the= n a collaborative linguistic dissection with interspersed grammar questions= ). The two structures could overlap (sentences as a searchable content type= are used in both).

Any thoughts/suggestions?
mu'o mi'e .ku'us.

On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 04:02, A. PIEKARSKI <totus@rogers.com> wrote:




----- Original Message ----
> From: Michael Turniansky <= mturniansky@gmail.com>
> To: lojban-beginners@lo= jban.org
> Sent: Mon, December 21, 2009 2:22:42 PM
> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Site for beginners was: vlatai and log= flash
>
> On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 1:27 PM, Pierre Abbat wrote:
>
> > There's a standard sentence-glossing format among linguists: = You write a
> > sentence in the language being studied, then translate each morph= eme, putting
> > cmavo and their rafsi in caps. I'd like to see this done to L= ojban sentences,
> > or in Lojban to sentences of other languages. E.g.:
> >
> > i le nu se citka cu funca le tordu sastu'u lacpu
> > SENT.SEP DEF EVENT PASS2 eat PRED.MARK luck.of DEF short grass-tu= be pull
> > The event of being eaten is the luck of the short straw puller. > >
> > On ?tiras =E0 la courte paille pour savoir qui serait mang=E9. > > INDEF.PRON pull-PAST.2SING at/to DEF-FEM short-FEM straw for know= -INF who
> > be-COND-3SING eat-PP-MASC
> > Someone pull the short straw to know who would be eaten.
> >
>
>
> =A0 If I had seen those notations when I wanted to start learning
> lojban, I'd have been out the revolving door so fast, the wind=A0 = would
> have knocked over even la nikyge'u.=A0 Think middle/junior high > schooler, not graduate student in linguistics, Pierre, to make things<= br> > more friendly.
>

I absolutely agree with the last comment above.=A0 I had a hard= time understanding
what you wrote, Pierre!

totus





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