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Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 07:17:50 -0800 (PST)
From: "A. PIEKARSKI" <totus@rogers.com>
Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Site for beginners was: vlatai and  logflash
To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org
In-Reply-To: <27513e550912211713s6a3b85c2ya5d86d86de39d4c2@mail.gmail.com>
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=0A=0A=0A>=0A>=0A>Part of offering help to language learners is presenting =
flexible techniques; some people prefer flashcards, some prefer fill-in-the=
-blank questions, some like to read a lot of examples. Some like to see gra=
mmar spelled out, some like to grab colloquial usage and eventually come to=
 understand the rules. Some people don't really know their preference.=0A>=
=0A>One idea for the simplest data model I can imagine that allows freedom =
in learning is:=0A>=0A>Lojban Sentence Submission (by anyone): lojban, natl=
ang, and comments on one page=0A>Use a blog-like web-page format of sentenc=
e case-studies with associated comments to provide a web-accessible learnin=
g database for lojbanistas (anyone interested in lojban).=0A>=0A>Scenario 1=
=0A>=A0* Lojbanists who already know their stuff can put submit lojban sent=
ences with either/both linguistic, thorough glosses and natural language (p=
ossibly multilingual) renditions.=0A>=A0* Beginners can search by keyword, =
vocab word, grammar, etc. They find the sentence, they ask a question in th=
e comments, and something like what happens on this mailing list gets recor=
ded in an easily visible webpage form=0A>=0A>Scenario 2=0A>=A0* Beginners c=
an submit a lojban sentence and an attempt at natlang translation, or vice-=
versa, or even just a natlang sentence they want to know how to say in lojb=
an. =0A>=A0* Lojbanists fill it in, and use the comments to discuss, like t=
his mailing list, any tricky grammar points etc.=0A>=0A>Scenario 3=0A>(mayb=
e a bit more fun)=0A>=A0* Same as scenario 1 or 2, except the lojban senten=
ce leaves a _____ blank to be filled in. A lojbanist might use this to writ=
e a 'textbook problem' or to overcome jolban writers block, and a beginner =
can use this technique to answer questions, or test the expressive limits o=
f lojban.=0A>=0A>Several days ago I mailed a data model for a language-less=
on format. This solution seems to be a bit more tailored to lojban, because=
 it seems the bulk of lojban conversation takes this form naturally (a text=
 excerpt, then a collaborative linguistic dissection with interspersed gram=
mar questions). The two structures could overlap (sentences as a searchable=
 content type are used in both).=0A>=0A>Any thoughts/suggestions?=0A>=0A>I =
can't say I prefer any one scenario over the others - they all look good to=
 me. =0A>However, the important point is that different people learn in dif=
ferent ways.=A0 =0A>For me, the reading of texts is the most important.=0A>=
=0A>The problem with this is that there's a bunch of texts on the wiki, wit=
h no =0A>differentiation between completed well-written ones that have been=
 vetted =0A>by several experienced lojbanists, and ones that are poorly wri=
tten or incomplete.=0A>Obviously a beginner should start off with a 'good' =
text and leave the ones that =0A>need vetting till later.=A0 I understand t=
hat once there was a plan to have 'officially =0A>approved' texts, but that=
 is probably impractical at this time.=0A>=0A>So I suggest that the website=
 includes some recommended texts, with the =0A>recommendation based on some=
 reasonable criteria.=0A>=0A>totus
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<html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></he=
ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:1=
2pt"><DIV><BR></DIV>=0A<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px=
 solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px">=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: =
arial, helvetica, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMILY=
: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT size=3D2 =
face=3DTahoma><BR></FONT><BR>=0A<DIV dir=3Dltr>Part of offering help to lan=
guage learners is presenting flexible techniques; some people prefer flashc=
ards, some prefer fill-in-the-blank questions, some like to read a lot of e=
xamples. Some like to see grammar spelled out, some like to grab colloquial=
 usage and eventually come to understand the rules. Some people don't reall=
y know their preference.<BR><BR>One idea for the simplest data model I can =
imagine that allows freedom in learning is:<BR><BR>Lojban Sentence Submissi=
on (by anyone): lojban, natlang, and comments on one page<BR>Use a blog-lik=
e web-page format of sentence case-studies with associated comments to prov=
ide a web-accessible learning database for lojbanistas (anyone interested i=
n lojban).<BR><BR>Scenario 1<BR>&nbsp;* Lojbanists who already know their s=
tuff can put submit lojban sentences with either/both linguistic, thorough =
glosses and natural language (possibly multilingual) renditions.<BR>&nbsp;*=
 Beginners can search by
 keyword, vocab word, grammar, etc. They find the sentence, they ask a ques=
tion in the comments, and something like what happens on this mailing list =
gets recorded in an easily visible webpage form<BR><BR>Scenario 2<BR>&nbsp;=
* Beginners can submit a lojban sentence and an attempt at natlang translat=
ion, or vice-versa, or even just a natlang sentence they want to know how t=
o say in lojban. <BR>&nbsp;* Lojbanists fill it in, and use the comments to=
 discuss, like this mailing list, any tricky grammar points etc.<BR><BR>Sce=
nario 3<BR>(maybe a bit more fun)<BR>&nbsp;* Same as scenario 1 or 2, excep=
t the lojban sentence leaves a _____ blank to be filled in. A lojbanist mig=
ht use this to write a 'textbook problem' or to overcome jolban writers blo=
ck, and a beginner can use this technique to answer questions, or test the =
expressive limits of lojban.<BR><BR>Several days ago I mailed a data model =
for a language-lesson format. This solution seems to be a bit more
 tailored to lojban, because it seems the bulk of lojban conversation takes=
 this form naturally (a text excerpt, then a collaborative linguistic disse=
ction with interspersed grammar questions). The two structures could overla=
p (sentences as a searchable content type are used in both).<BR><BR>Any tho=
ughts/suggestions?<BR></DIV>=0A<DIV dir=3Dltr>I can't say I prefer any one =
scenario over the others - they all look good to me. </DIV>=0A<DIV dir=3Dlt=
r>However, the important point is that different people learn in different =
ways.&nbsp; </DIV>=0A<DIV dir=3Dltr>For me, the reading of texts is the mos=
t important.</DIV>=0A<DIV dir=3Dltr>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A<DIV dir=3Dltr>The probl=
em with this is that there's a bunch of texts on the wiki, with no </DIV>=
=0A<DIV dir=3Dltr>differentiation between completed well-written ones that =
have been vetted </DIV>=0A<DIV dir=3Dltr>by several experienced lojbanists,=
 and ones that are poorly written or incomplete.</DIV>=0A<DIV dir=3Dltr>Obv=
iously a beginner should start off with a 'good' text and leave the ones th=
at </DIV>=0A<DIV dir=3Dltr>need vetting till later.&nbsp; I understand that=
 once there was a plan to have 'officially </DIV>=0A<DIV dir=3Dltr>approved=
' texts, but that is probably impractical at this time.</DIV>=0A<DIV dir=3D=
ltr>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A<DIV dir=3Dltr>So I suggest that the website includes so=
me recommended texts, with the </DIV>=0A<DIV dir=3Dltr>recommendation based=
 on some reasonable criteria.</DIV>=0A<DIV dir=3Dltr>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A<DIV di=
r=3Dltr>totus</DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><!-- cg2.c702.mail.ac4.yahoo.co=
m compressed/chunked Tue Dec 22 07:02:49 PST 2009 --></div></body></html>
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