Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:07:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NN997-0004Od-5T for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:07:46 -0800 Received: from mail-bw0-f215.google.com ([209.85.218.215]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NN98g-0004Em-7r for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:07:26 -0800 Received: by bwz7 with SMTP id 7so4714359bwz.26 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:07:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=eAhCzC6OrAqyR1g50LtUEmuhRKwwyH+AeFctz+NQOb0=; b=XokPRynAkVQVcBYDBihN3lKzk7Diy7/+oQdd5E7FTGHppfyEDPQTW8ifb6RsEKnBgr gMhmbSweFGnAGlQM60Ic96rpnMNOr8JihldSXct08kY+E4QIrXhT2vZX2XInVf8QbWl8 HAwgIksDrJAd784/cX4uY/aqCYGy5bIPtVYyk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=PJAn8OkUjyph9zYt89rigXOjfHax35qjIpMex3CAwkjSzM+ccd9KoZ9uZgQ+yqY+J9 /7+1064r8JNsXlac8zwMyEpNInB4P2qTkVBRPJsDff/THj9sjcGI43Wpz+odTvzEvCI8 nPPplQHWtvK7568ISh/769R+6/DuoTq278MzI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.33.135 with SMTP id h7mr6058868bkd.28.1261505231175; Tue, 22 Dec 2009 10:07:11 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <27513e550912220751x757995cbi4e80e17aeaf1d2eb@mail.gmail.com> References: <230918.3024.qm@web88005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <33073.79.75.29.254.1261327629.squirrel@mailgate.denbridgemarine.com> <27513e550912201755p5b49a95dg224f022e030644ed@mail.gmail.com> <200912211327.37550.phma@phma.optus.nu> <96f789a60912211122g130717c8ja5edfa04d77a0825@mail.gmail.com> <110822.32761.qm@web88005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <27513e550912211713s6a3b85c2ya5d86d86de39d4c2@mail.gmail.com> <330650.65926.qm@web88005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <27513e550912220751x757995cbi4e80e17aeaf1d2eb@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2009 13:07:11 -0500 Message-ID: <249d5b950912221007h2e7c2457l17b5ab2ad3ccfef2@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Site for beginners was: vlatai and logflash From: Steven Lytle To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00032555642e2fc1cf047b5513f6 X-archive-position: 2699 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: lytlesw@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners Content-Length: 12683 --00032555642e2fc1cf047b5513f6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Whatever happened to the Elephant idea? stevo On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Oren wrote: > Yea, I think there's definitely some high-quality lessons on lojban.orgalready, and more good ones being produced on google wave as well. I see the > two approaches (lessons and submitted sentences) as being a pretty solid > model; there's two more things I think might complete the system: > > Rich dictionary entries > I think that the idea to show rafsi in practical use is great; and I think > the best way to flesh out gismu entries (and cmavo, eventually lujvo too) is > to have dictionary entries that can have example sentences and > comments/questions, a record for common questions that people have about > usage etc. The entry for each word could (should) have rafsi examples if > applicable, natural language origins if applicable, and example usage > (possibly more). > > Flash Cards > If people get the initiative to make flashcard groups for lessons, just > make them and link to them on smart.fm, which seems to be the best free > platform-independent flashcard solution I can find. The only things that > come close are jar files (like jMemorize) or not as flexible or intuitive as > smart.fm. > > And for advanced users, I think lojban reading is a great idea. Maybe > eventually audio/video files... I'm an optimist. > > So... > 1) Lesson directory > 2) Forums & Sentence Submission > 3) Detailed dictionary with Comments > 4) Possible links to flashcards > 5) Advanced study materials > ...any other study style missing? > > And, yes, I realize all of these things *could technically* happen on the > current lojban wiki, but I contend that the wiki format is not optimal for > beginner language websites; because to your average web user: > > 1) wikis lack an immediate communication medium like commenting, (not > everyone does mailing lists) > 2) wikis lack a consistent, accessible record of conversations (which > happen a lot with lojban!), and > 3) presenting lojban development alongside lojban learning can be > discouraging to beginners > > More thoughts? .au > mi'e ku'us .i co'o > > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 23:17, A. PIEKARSKI wrote: > >> >> >> >> Part of offering help to language learners is presenting flexible >> techniques; some people prefer flashcards, some prefer fill-in-the-blank >> questions, some like to read a lot of examples. Some like to see grammar >> spelled out, some like to grab colloquial usage and eventually come to >> understand the rules. Some people don't really know their preference. >> >> One idea for the simplest data model I can imagine that allows freedom in >> learning is: >> >> Lojban Sentence Submission (by anyone): lojban, natlang, and comments on >> one page >> Use a blog-like web-page format of sentence case-studies with associated >> comments to provide a web-accessible learning database for lojbanistas >> (anyone interested in lojban). >> >> Scenario 1 >> * Lojbanists who already know their stuff can put submit lojban sentences >> with either/both linguistic, thorough glosses and natural language (possibly >> multilingual) renditions. >> * Beginners can search by keyword, vocab word, grammar, etc. They find >> the sentence, they ask a question in the comments, and something like what >> happens on this mailing list gets recorded in an easily visible webpage form >> >> Scenario 2 >> * Beginners can submit a lojban sentence and an attempt at natlang >> translation, or vice-versa, or even just a natlang sentence they want to >> know how to say in lojban. >> * Lojbanists fill it in, and use the comments to discuss, like this >> mailing list, any tricky grammar points etc. >> >> Scenario 3 >> (maybe a bit more fun) >> * Same as scenario 1 or 2, except the lojban sentence leaves a _____ >> blank to be filled in. A lojbanist might use this to write a 'textbook >> problem' or to overcome jolban writers block, and a beginner can use this >> technique to answer questions, or test the expressive limits of lojban. >> >> Several days ago I mailed a data model for a language-lesson format. This >> solution seems to be a bit more tailored to lojban, because it seems the >> bulk of lojban conversation takes this form naturally (a text excerpt, then >> a collaborative linguistic dissection with interspersed grammar questions). >> The two structures could overlap (sentences as a searchable content type are >> used in both). >> >> Any thoughts/suggestions? >> I can't say I prefer any one scenario over the others - they all look good >> to me. >> However, the important point is that different people learn in different >> ways. >> For me, the reading of texts is the most important. >> >> The problem with this is that there's a bunch of texts on the wiki, with >> no >> differentiation between completed well-written ones that have been vetted >> by several experienced lojbanists, and ones that are poorly written or >> incomplete. >> Obviously a beginner should start off with a 'good' text and leave the >> ones that >> need vetting till later. I understand that once there was a plan to have >> 'officially >> approved' texts, but that is probably impractical at this time. >> >> So I suggest that the website includes some recommended texts, with the >> recommendation based on some reasonable criteria. >> >> totus >> >> > --00032555642e2fc1cf047b5513f6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Whatever happened to the Elephant idea?
=A0
stevo

On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Oren <get.oren@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:
Yea, I think there's definitely some high-quality less= ons on lojban.org alre= ady, and more good ones being produced on google wave as well. I see the tw= o approaches (lessons and submitted sentences) as being a pretty solid mode= l; there's two more things I think might complete the system:

Rich dictionary entries
I think that the idea to show rafsi in pract= ical use is great; and I think the best way to flesh out gismu entries (and= cmavo, eventually lujvo too) is to have dictionary entries that can have e= xample sentences and comments/questions, a record for common questions that= people have about usage etc. The entry for each word could (should) have r= afsi examples if applicable, natural language origins if applicable, and ex= ample usage (possibly more).

Flash Cards
If people get the initiative to make flashcard groups fo= r lessons, just make them and link to them on smart.fm, which seems to be the best free platform-in= dependent flashcard solution I can find. The only things that come close ar= e jar files (like jMemorize) or not as flexible or intuitive as smart.fm.

And for advanced users, I think lojban reading is a great idea. Maybe e= ventually audio/video files... I'm an optimist.

So...
1) Less= on directory
2) Forums & Sentence Submission
3) Detailed dictiona= ry with Comments
4) Possible links to flashcards
5) Advanced study materials
...any ot= her study style missing?

And, yes, I realize all of these things *co= uld technically* happen on the current lojban wiki, but I contend that the = wiki format is not optimal for beginner language websites; because to your = average web user:

1) wikis lack an immediate communication medium like commenting, (not e= veryone does mailing lists)
2) wikis lack a consistent, accessible recor= d of conversations (which happen a lot with lojban!), and
3) presenting = lojban development alongside lojban learning can be discouraging to beginne= rs

More thoughts? .au
mi'e ku'us .i co'o=20


On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 23:17, A. PIEKARSKI <tot= us@rogers.com> wrote:



Part of offering help to language learners is presenting f= lexible techniques; some people prefer flashcards, some prefer fill-in-the-= blank questions, some like to read a lot of examples. Some like to see gram= mar spelled out, some like to grab colloquial usage and eventually come to = understand the rules. Some people don't really know their preference.
One idea for the simplest data model I can imagine that allows freedom = in learning is:

Lojban Sentence Submission (by anyone): lojban, natl= ang, and comments on one page
Use a blog-like web-page format of sentenc= e case-studies with associated comments to provide a web-accessible learnin= g database for lojbanistas (anyone interested in lojban).

Scenario 1
=A0* Lojbanists who already know their stuff can put subm= it lojban sentences with either/both linguistic, thorough glosses and natur= al language (possibly multilingual) renditions.
=A0* Beginners can searc= h by keyword, vocab word, grammar, etc. They find the sentence, they ask a = question in the comments, and something like what happens on this mailing l= ist gets recorded in an easily visible webpage form

Scenario 2
=A0* Beginners can submit a lojban sentence and an attemp= t at natlang translation, or vice-versa, or even just a natlang sentence th= ey want to know how to say in lojban.
=A0* Lojbanists fill it in, and u= se the comments to discuss, like this mailing list, any tricky grammar poin= ts etc.

Scenario 3
(maybe a bit more fun)
=A0* Same as scenario 1 or 2, e= xcept the lojban sentence leaves a _____ blank to be filled in. A lojbanist= might use this to write a 'textbook problem' or to overcome jolban= writers block, and a beginner can use this technique to answer questions, = or test the expressive limits of lojban.

Several days ago I mailed a data model for a language-lesson format. Th= is solution seems to be a bit more tailored to lojban, because it seems the= bulk of lojban conversation takes this form naturally (a text excerpt, the= n a collaborative linguistic dissection with interspersed grammar questions= ). The two structures could overlap (sentences as a searchable content type= are used in both).

Any thoughts/suggestions?
I can't say I prefer any one scenario over the others = - they all look good to me.
However, the important point is that different people lear= n in different ways.=A0
For me, the reading of texts is the most important.
=A0
The problem with this is that there's a bunch of texts= on the wiki, with no
differentiation between completed well-written ones that h= ave been vetted
by several experienced lojbanists, and ones that are poorl= y written or incomplete.
Obviously a beginner should start off with a 'good'= ; text and leave the ones that
need vetting till later.=A0 I understand that once there w= as a plan to have 'officially
approved' texts, but that is probably impractical at t= his time.
=A0
So I suggest that the website includes some recommended te= xts, with the
recommendation based on some reasonable criteria.
=A0
totus


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