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Message-ID: <82471.28871.qm@web88005.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <230918.3024.qm@web88005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <27513e550912221954g8553b15t2447129b7cce0caf@mail.gmail.com> <915587.54171.qm@web88003.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200912231312.13521.colin.wright@denbridgemarine.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 06:44:30 -0800 (PST)
From: "A. PIEKARSKI" <totus@rogers.com>
Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Site for beginners was: vlatai and  logflash
To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org
In-Reply-To: <200912231312.13521.colin.wright@denbridgemarine.com>
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With respect, Colin, you are missing the point. We are no longer talking about 
vlatai, but about how we communicate to non-techie beginners.  They will be challenged 
enough with lojban.  They should not have to resort to dictionaries and Google 
to figure out what is supposedly being communicated in English.  The onus to 
achieve effective communications is ALWAYS on the communicator, and not 
on the intended recipient.

I have heard similar arguements to yours from physicians and lawyers (not to 
mention my IT clients).  Yet I have a family doctor who always manages to talk 
intelligibly with his patients, no matter how technical the issue or how low their level 
of education. I also have a lawyer who never seems to have a problem 
of being understood by his clients even in the most complicated cases.  It can be 
done and, in Lojbanistan, it should be done now.  "Eventually" is not good enough.   
Eventually, lojban may end up in the graveyard of so many other constructed langauges.

totus


----- Original Message ----
> From: Colin Wright <colin.wright@denbridgemarine.com>
> To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org
> Sent: Wed, December 23, 2009 8:12:13 AM
> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Site for beginners was: vlatai and logflash
> 
> 
> > This exchange of emails is a good reminder to us all about
> > how carefully we will need to communicate to our intended
> > audience through the intended beginners website.
> 
> > I may not have ever have written a line of code, but I have
> > worked many years in IT companies (sales, marketing, marketing
> > communications).  Many beginners will be even further removed
> > from the the world of IT.
> 
> Part of the problem is that preparing software for a non-programming audience 
> is at least ten times harder, possibly 100 times harder, than hacking out 
> something that's useful to those willing to learn a bit about how these 
> things work.  People who don't work in programming have no inkling as to the 
> efforts needed to convert something a hacker can use into something the 
> general populace won't instantly break.  My parents, for example, would never 
> be able to use any of the lojban tools.  My wife, although non-technical, can 
> follow most of the instructions, but needs coaxing through some of the more 
> obscure parts, and if something goes wrong she doesn't know what to try next.
> 
> I have perhaps a dozen tools that I use daily, and colleagues use daily, that 
> would take months if not years to turn into consumer products.
> 
> > By the way, what's KDE?  I suspect something American.  Well,
> > I'm not an American and I assume we want non-American beginners too.
> 
> This is part of the problem.  Did you try using Google?
> 
>     http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=KDE
> 
> Top hit:
> 
>     " KDE is a powerful graphical desktop
>       environment for Unix workstations. "
> 
> In my version of an IT world people would at least try checking Google before 
> asking a question like that.  My wife would, my parents wouldn't.
> 
> While I'm extremely happy that you're enthusiastic about lojban and clearly 
> interested in helping, I have no insight into the mindset of a person who 
> wouldn't use Google to research that sort of question before coming straight 
> back out and asking.
> 
> Without people like you this project will forever remain an obscure, cultish, 
> techie-only backwater..  You're absolutely right that for lojban eventually to 
> expand and become more mainstream, it's people like you we need to cater for.  
> 
> But I have no idea how to do that.
> 
> 
> mi'e kolin.
> -- 
> Dr C.D.Wright, Director of Innovation and Engineering
> Denbridge Marine Limited, Cammell Lairds Waterfront Park,
> Campbeltown Road, Birkenhead, Wirral, Merseyside, CH41 9HP.
> 
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> 
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