Received: from mail-qy0-f167.google.com ([209.85.221.167]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3wey1SwAAEK8adYQPc-QTVXccTghVddVaTVgdjeh.Rdb@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1Nxge3-0001Ly-KE for lojban-beginners-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 06:10:48 -0700 Received: by qyk39 with SMTP id 39sf3829117qyk.23 for ; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 06:10:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=4dN/NsGimJsj0xq9g07L54sqtZpqUQdwplhFPKBlnmw=; b=anPvCmB+ouiz9liBWlm6tHVYnG4QtjD1XsECyviVqZDfCbRmJY7+GIp5T0O0Y+Ilit mmIWIapxVAYhqde4bI8r7f0hwkaOQjqmRDLrt2xGD7yZn/nRdCOUztrIByI8XfailPtN sWucvDI+EkGSHoDYQl9xEpft7OeGxjAWs1OEE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=uWoXS4f0yCvj/2xYho6kIiHr6unHTbmID41JPu9KO3y5HEnGWr8xSyxMGN1pcrllXY W+DBejGe1Tge0yZ1igo2AWBa+VpeAB1U3ofcQuUrv4ioNG0HpVdgz1OmpvRwrsiZiTql FG0qjTOLdrFFrGWM5W5TDEJEjSKZb5Bv02hLI= Received: by 10.229.2.140 with SMTP id 12mr33419qcj.47.1270213825387; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 06:10:25 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.131.101 with SMTP id w37ls588611qcs.0.p; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 06:10:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.22.2 with SMTP id l2mr153315qcb.20.1270213823269; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 06:10:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.22.2 with SMTP id l2mr153314qcb.20.1270213823214; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 06:10:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f66.google.com (mail-vw0-f66.google.com [209.85.212.66]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 24si976227qyk.10.2010.04.02.06.10.22; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 06:10:22 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.66 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.66; Received: by vws14 with SMTP id 14so208601vws.9 for ; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 06:10:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.100.73 with HTTP; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 06:10:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <1f1080831003101520r1e87f21cuacb4cd23fa9a2d4c@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a61003291306k4b7ef0e6u1e0ec0f9f7024415@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561003291502n2e214555y3a726fed512f0d1d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 09:10:21 -0400 Received: by 10.220.4.21 with SMTP id 21mr1112476vcp.222.1270213822001; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 06:10:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Duration questions From: Luke Bergen To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.66 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/t/8a645652df58adca X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/msg/bf60c71b850ec226 Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001517576cb2a6323e048340b3fd Content-Length: 6782 --001517576cb2a6323e048340b3fd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable xorxes, can you give an equally explicit example of your opinions on how ze'u should work? (maybe using the same example of limna for maximum clarity for a noob like myself?) On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 8:03 AM, Michael Turniansky w= rote: > 2010/4/1 Jorge Llamb=EDas : > > On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 5:29 PM, Michael Turniansky > > wrote: > > >>> In the usual pattern, > >>> " broda" can always be expressed as "broda ko'a" by > >>> choosing a suitable "ko'a". The tag always has the same effect on > >>> broda, and ko'a only adds more information. > >> > >> It still does. And with exactly the same "ko'a" as is currently > >> defined for all PU/ZA/VI, etc. namely (are you ready?....) "ti". So > >> how can "ze'u ti" mean "for a long time of this?" and still mean "for > >> a long time"? Because how big/long a space/duration that "ti" > >> occupies is entirely dependent on context. > > > > Are you saying that if you say "mi ze'u limna", that means "mi limna > > ze'u ti", and "ti" refers to a length of time just a little bit longer > > than whatever length of time you were swimming for (whether that was a > > short or a long time)? Clerly not, so you must be saying that "ti" has > > to be a long "ti" when used with "ze'u ti", and probably not too long > > for "ze'i ti". But this "ti", unlike the "here and now" used as > > reference point for PU and FAhA, seems like a completely ad hoc > > construction, built specifically for the purpose of making "ZEhA > > broda" equivalent to "broda ZEhA ti", with no natural independent > > existence. > > Yup, that's exactly what I'm saying. All of those things. I'm > sorry if it makes you uncomfortable, but I am now confident you > understand precisely my position. > > --gejyspa > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. --001517576cb2a6323e048340b3fd Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable xorxes, can you give an equally explicit example of your=A0opinions=A0on ho= w ze'u should work? =A0(maybe using the same example of limna for maxim= um clarity for a noob like myself?)

On Fr= i, Apr 2, 2010 at 8:03 AM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrot= e:
2010/4/1 Jorge Llamb=EDas= <jjllambias@gmail.com>:<= br>
> On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 5:29 PM, Michael Turnia= nsky
> <mturniansky@gmail.com= > wrote:

>>> =A0In the usual pattern,
>>> "<tag> broda" can always be expressed as "= ;broda <tag> ko'a" by
>>> choosing a suitable "ko'a". The tag always has t= he same effect on
>>> broda, and ko'a only adds more information.
>>
>> =A0It still does. =A0And with exactly the same "ko'a"= ; as is currently
>> defined for all PU/ZA/VI, etc. =A0 namely (are you ready?....) &qu= ot;ti". =A0So
>> how can "ze'u ti" mean "for a long time of this= ?" and still mean "for
>> a long time"? =A0Because how big/long a space/duration that &= quot;ti"
>> occupies is entirely dependent on context.
>
> Are you saying that if you say "mi ze'u limna", that mea= ns "mi limna
> ze'u ti", and "ti" refers to a length of time just = a little bit longer
> than whatever length of time you were swimming for (whether that was a=
> short or a long time)? Clerly not, so you must be saying that "ti= " has
> to be a long "ti" when used with "ze'u ti", an= d probably not too long
> for "ze'i ti". But this "ti", unlike the "= ;here and now" used as
> reference point for PU and FAhA, seems like a completely ad hoc
> construction, built specifically for the purpose of making "ZEhA<= br> > broda" equivalent to "broda ZEhA ti", with no natural i= ndependent
> existence.

=A0Yup, that's exactly what I'm saying. =A0All of those thin= gs. =A0I'm
sorry if it makes you uncomfortable, but I am now confident you
understand precisely my position.

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa

--
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For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
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