Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3UQa2SwoJEFkAACC1D291J7D19C.3FDCFA21E-2579EE5IJ7FF7C57IFLGJ.3FD@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NxiLc-0004bF-MB for lojban-beginners-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 07:59:53 -0700 Received: by vws5 with SMTP id 5sf2220630vws.16 for ; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 07:59:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=UTXkdqtM1bG5b4WR0ymcch0E3hiS/WqFEpBxXVLK7RA=; b=Hu+NM92su7C5ttDHIvWLKqt99eprkuW94Fa8r8O9NSJ2QGUCQv+OmuiZ+OzR/lmWtZ u7l19Ol5cRgglqenlo5HWUzkCrxD2RGb4P9fQsQR+92jSU93C/e+PYHcPdBhuqUPgVCU cka5SiZp9EwGeJnI2IWvLnqEajBtOu4P3kmJo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=pJrV8bEBH/OgxqoPbLZ9IbIxir2aHwGh497qt/Zn/3B2cRVSwvXFa0VCCGVbij5z0R tcKwW7/CeY4Q0xRSTbzGB7s3SXTuOlrvJQdVKvuENyy9Sh5v1IvH+FRUw3EkgJQjAaql 0JHc5zJ3GnMjy8oEXtTDcTHh9m16gCdHpq5SU= Received: by 10.220.107.165 with SMTP id b37mr194183vcp.21.1270220369995; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 07:59:29 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.79.3 with SMTP id n3ls590100vck.3.p; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 07:59:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.165.195 with SMTP id j3mr492950vcy.25.1270220368401; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 07:59:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.165.195 with SMTP id j3mr492949vcy.25.1270220368382; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 07:59:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f199.google.com (mail-qy0-f199.google.com [209.85.221.199]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 31si22135842vws.4.2010.04.02.07.59.27; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 07:59:27 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.199 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.221.199; Received: by mail-qy0-f199.google.com with SMTP id 37so2286336qyk.8 for ; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 07:59:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.91.67 with HTTP; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 07:59:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <1f1080831003101520r1e87f21cuacb4cd23fa9a2d4c@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561003291502n2e214555y3a726fed512f0d1d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 11:59:26 -0300 Received: by 10.229.192.10 with SMTP id do10mr3806072qcb.48.1270220366411; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 07:59:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Duration questions From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.199 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/t/8a645652df58adca X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/msg/fcee02cf45ba9169 Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 2737 On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 10:10 AM, Luke Bergen wrote: > xorxes, can you give an equally explicit example of your=A0opinions=A0on = how > ze'u should work? =A0(maybe using the same example of limna for maximum > clarity for a noob like myself?) OK, instead of me giving you the fish, let me teach you how to fish. Every tag (every cmavo of PU, FAhA, ZEhA, VEhA, ZI, VA, etc.) can be expressed as "fi'o broda (fe'u)" with a suitable choice of broda. This is important, the tag is just a shortcut for expressing something that could be expressed with a full predicate. Don't think of the tag as the basic element. For some tags, the corresponding broda is obvious: pu =3D fi'o selpru ba =3D fi'o selbalvi ca =3D fi'o selcabna ne'i =3D fi'o selne'i zu'a =3D fi'o selzunle be'a =3D fi'o selberti fa'a =3D fi'o farna And so on. For other tags, the predicate to use is not so obvious. If you look at the Lojban-Lojban definitions for tags in jbovlaste, you will find a corresponding selbri for each tag. (Those definitions are not official, they were written by me so they reflect my understanding of each tag. But the principle would be the same with a different understanding of the tag: you would just pick a different corresponding selbri). Once you have the selbri, you can figure out how to use the tag as a sumti tcita, following this simple rule: brode ko'a =3D brode fi'o broda ko'a =3D ko'a broda lo nu brode The tag establishes a relationship between the event described by the main selbri and the sumti that the tag tags. For example: mi crepu lo mudri pu lo dunra =3D mi crepu lo mudri fi'o selpru lo dunra =3D lo dunra cu selpru lo nu mi crepu lo mudri "Winter is the reference point from which my collecting wood is in the past." "I collect wood before the winter." Now, I define ze'a =3D fi'o krafamtei Where: krafamtei: "x1 is the (non-descript) duration of x2" Similarly: ze'i =3D fi'o tordu krafamtei ze'u =3D fi'o clani krafamtei ze'e =3D fi'o cimni krafamtei So, let's apply the rule to an example with "ze'u": lo cribe cu sipna ze'u lo dunra =3D lo cribe cu sipna fi'o clani krafamtei lo dunra =3D lo dunra cu clani krafamtei lo nu lo cribe cu sipna "The winter is the long duration of the event of the bear sleeping." "The bear sleeps all winter long." mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.