Received: from mail-qy0-f162.google.com ([209.85.221.162]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3wge2SwAAEMs250sr4-svxz44v89x55x2vx85B69.t53@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1NxiRY-0005Rn-Q8 for lojban-beginners-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 08:06:01 -0700 Received: by qyk34 with SMTP id 34sf4069905qyk.21 for ; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 08:05:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=BXCAkwJy/Ac35BL+cdK+FWCMYQ+UED/qTkPOmqNEK0w=; b=yoJkXEwj43VYPRKy0kRhK9epfci7B/5PdCej2UEbkvsAKBLKLIj4+MXqEw4p4QeS8h M7UClpc9Rt7uLiJ4fCL7y0nJGIdu0Jybg3NOZ3WG2QNb3+VzfA39LQh64ctIyYVuZTws mELvA3QtYTLM0AtZl6kuf78ocxTLUCSBuBPts= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=Ee2PnF1j1qpyvfb2PK2te4+YZbEweVmuJ7nF4LRW5X9Dbx6jo3UuKgVo9d3yMwnP7x lDVS0D4W8udOd7+yxMyv5tpMEDnZ/hdR/EsxNKqLiJqkg6JEJTiff/nmFs6iPz2jVSzS 0fDW6cJSzXfSGoM6Wh9G9wQ/dWS/xcfZBrRFc= Received: by 10.224.10.133 with SMTP id p5mr77471qap.41.1270220738267; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 08:05:38 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.32.10 with SMTP id a10ls232422qad.2.p; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 08:05:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.84.201 with SMTP id k9mr188274qal.6.1270220737393; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 08:05:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.84.201 with SMTP id k9mr188273qal.6.1270220737357; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 08:05:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f67.google.com (mail-vw0-f67.google.com [209.85.212.67]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 24si990467qyk.2.2010.04.02.08.05.36; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 08:05:36 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.67 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.67; Received: by vws17 with SMTP id 17so377342vws.10 for ; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 08:05:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.100.73 with HTTP; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 08:05:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <1f1080831003101520r1e87f21cuacb4cd23fa9a2d4c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 11:05:36 -0400 Received: by 10.220.60.12 with SMTP id n12mr1184543vch.156.1270220736145; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 08:05:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Duration questions From: Luke Bergen To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.67 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/t/8a645652df58adca X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/msg/659d0ac51b0fff57 Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e0cb4e887371c3ab6a0483424ff3 Content-Length: 8129 --e0cb4e887371c3ab6a0483424ff3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Makes sense to me. Thanks for the fishing rod :) 2010/4/2 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 10:10 AM, Luke Bergen > wrote: > > xorxes, can you give an equally explicit example of your opinions on ho= w > > ze'u should work? (maybe using the same example of limna for maximum > > clarity for a noob like myself?) > > OK, instead of me giving you the fish, let me teach you how to fish. > > Every tag (every cmavo of PU, FAhA, ZEhA, VEhA, ZI, VA, etc.) can be > expressed as "fi'o broda (fe'u)" with a suitable choice of broda. This > is important, the tag is just a shortcut for expressing something that > could be expressed with a full predicate. Don't think of the tag as > the basic element. For some tags, the corresponding broda is obvious: > > pu =3D fi'o selpru > ba =3D fi'o selbalvi > ca =3D fi'o selcabna > ne'i =3D fi'o selne'i > zu'a =3D fi'o selzunle > be'a =3D fi'o selberti > fa'a =3D fi'o farna > > And so on. For other tags, the predicate to use is not so obvious. If > you look at the Lojban-Lojban definitions for tags in jbovlaste, you > will find a corresponding selbri for each tag. (Those definitions are > not official, they were written by me so they reflect my understanding > of each tag. But the principle would be the same with a different > understanding of the tag: you would just pick a different > corresponding selbri). > > Once you have the selbri, you can figure out how to use the tag as a > sumti tcita, following this simple rule: > > brode ko'a > =3D brode fi'o broda ko'a > =3D ko'a broda lo nu brode > > The tag establishes a relationship between the event described by the > main selbri and the sumti that the tag tags. > > For example: > > mi crepu lo mudri pu lo dunra > =3D mi crepu lo mudri fi'o selpru lo dunra > =3D lo dunra cu selpru lo nu mi crepu lo mudri > "Winter is the reference point from which my collecting wood is in > the past." > "I collect wood before the winter." > > Now, I define > > ze'a =3D fi'o krafamtei > > Where: > > krafamtei: "x1 is the (non-descript) duration of x2" > > Similarly: > > ze'i =3D fi'o tordu krafamtei > ze'u =3D fi'o clani krafamtei > ze'e =3D fi'o cimni krafamtei > > So, let's apply the rule to an example with "ze'u": > > lo cribe cu sipna ze'u lo dunra > =3D lo cribe cu sipna fi'o clani krafamtei lo dunra > =3D lo dunra cu clani krafamtei lo nu lo cribe cu sipna > "The winter is the long duration of the event of the bear sleeping." > "The bear sleeps all winter long." > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. --e0cb4e887371c3ab6a0483424ff3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Makes sense to me. =A0Thanks for the fishing rod :)

2010/4/2 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 10:10 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
> xorxes, can you give an equally explicit example of your=A0opinions=A0= on how
> ze'u should work? =A0(maybe using the same example of limna for ma= ximum
> clarity for a noob like myself?)

OK, instead of me giving you the fish, let me teach you how to fish.<= br>
Every tag (every cmavo of PU, FAhA, ZEhA, VEhA, ZI, VA, etc.) can be
expressed as "fi'o broda (fe'u)" with a suitable choice o= f broda. This
is important, the tag is just a shortcut for expressing something that
could be expressed with a full predicate. Don't think of the tag as
the basic element. For some tags, the corresponding broda is obvious:

pu =3D fi'o selpru
ba =3D fi'o selbalvi
ca =3D fi'o selcabna
ne'i =3D fi'o selne'i
zu'a =3D fi'o selzunle
be'a =3D fi'o selberti
fa'a =3D fi'o farna

And so on. For other tags, the predicate to use is not so obvious. If
you look at the Lojban-Lojban definitions for tags in jbovlaste, you
will find a corresponding selbri for each tag. (Those definitions are
not official, they were written by me so they reflect my understanding
of each tag. But the principle would be the same with a different
understanding of the tag: you would just pick a different
corresponding selbri).

Once you have the selbri, you can figure out how to use the tag as a
sumti tcita, following this simple rule:

=A0 =A0brode <tag> ko'a
=A0=3D brode fi'o broda ko'a
=A0=3D ko'a broda lo nu brode

The tag establishes a relationship between the event described by the
main selbri and the sumti that the tag tags.

For example:

=A0 =A0mi crepu lo mudri pu lo dunra
=A0=3D mi crepu lo mudri fi'o selpru lo dunra
=A0=3D lo dunra cu selpru lo nu mi crepu lo mudri
=A0 =A0"Winter is the reference point from which my collecting wood i= s in
the past."
=A0 =A0"I collect wood before the winter."

Now, I define

=A0ze'a =3D fi'o krafamtei

Where:

=A0krafamtei: "x1 is the (non-descript) duration of x2"

Similarly:

=A0ze'i =3D fi'o tordu krafamtei
=A0ze'u =3D fi'o clani krafamtei
=A0ze'e =3D fi'o cimni krafamtei

So, let's apply the rule to an example with "ze'u":

lo cribe cu sipna ze'u lo dunra
=3D lo cribe cu sipna fi'o clani krafamtei lo dunra
=3D lo dunra cu clani krafamtei lo nu lo cribe cu sipna
"The winter is the long duration of the event of the bear sleeping.&qu= ot;
"The bear sleeps all winter long."

mu'o mi'e xorxes

--
You received this message because y= ou are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.<= br> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.
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