Received: from mail-gx0-f198.google.com ([209.85.217.198]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O19GB-0000HB-4F; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 19:20:27 -0700 Received: by gxk22 with SMTP id 22sf1556158gxk.4 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 19:20:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:x-vr-score :x-authority-analysis:x-cm-score:message-id:date:from:user-agent :x-accept-language:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=huprhTfozyzdHT+4YPnRS8OeCQWdnHru+V9geN9sqyc=; b=Ai2C5ql0cZTWRag4gAQb/6RGbU4KeD9p0CA99g7aezJ2WEMXxKUs5Rd4WBUJYM1J8q XI0/CmLHot6zaoMJOHgbehaKbLa+M6De2Qoso19gAKDPB/O8pjZ7rLz/JdTzn8O52p0X zol925c7DpcySsf+AAkBkvGtq5suZQFaZBX9Q= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-vr-score:x-authority-analysis:x-cm-score :message-id:date:from:user-agent:x-accept-language:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=xuE8MR4XAIE65T8SbcGMGevybdjUmqeLspc+Gb9/djfsDfwGLMJtgWFNVi7HWmutxc 3zhOCsQCp8JGqM54PYemtzadp/bass3BiqOEzUcapLLqkW1cMMRHBCa4tZPzGDuAvfpk vmAsRtDd097lH2/uz9BpwrAjm/dkSkO1jMl6c= Received: by 10.91.121.9 with SMTP id y9mr528725agm.3.1271038814858; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 19:20:14 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.67.25 with SMTP id u25ls287543agk.7.p; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 19:20:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.7.36 with SMTP id 36mr2951559agg.10.1271038813632; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 19:20:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.7.36 with SMTP id 36mr2951557agg.10.1271038813589; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 19:20:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eastrmmtao103.cox.net (eastrmmtao103.cox.net [68.230.240.9]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 18si192186yxe.8.2010.04.11.19.20.13; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 19:20:13 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 68.230.240.9 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of lojbab@lojban.org) client-ip=68.230.240.9; Received: from eastrmimpo01.cox.net ([68.1.16.119]) by eastrmmtao103.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.00.01.00 201-2244-105-20090324) with ESMTP id <20100412022014.BNQT27114.eastrmmtao103.cox.net@eastrmimpo01.cox.net> for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 22:20:14 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.100] ([70.187.225.124]) by eastrmimpo01.cox.net with bizsmtp id 4SLC1e00G2hfrC602SLCng; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 22:20:13 -0400 X-VR-Score: -100.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=u9aaE4Pfr0xy9UvPxuh9qFR1i2SV5RyaXjJQawTgqeY= c=1 sm=1 a=YYktzMAcHmUA:10 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=lsg66w07okjF3vGJL2g+Jw==:17 a=gLvhtGf-rlkAGzG1J_AA:9 a=Pf4otoUAODUtf9tOBVMA:7 a=vT8XGzPzWH6MkbTZhGAACEvkDdwA:4 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=lsg66w07okjF3vGJL2g+Jw==:117 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: <4BC283CE.1050300@lojban.org> Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 22:22:06 -0400 From: Robert LeChevalier User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Biting off way more than I can chew -- and loving it! References: <65acaf76-6714-432b-8ffd-c4fcb99a809e@y17g2000yqd.googlegroups.com> <4BC1D5C7.80105@lojban.org> <406bf92a-221e-4c59-a73c-d9b58a7ef8e0@z4g2000yqa.googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <406bf92a-221e-4c59-a73c-d9b58a7ef8e0@z4g2000yqa.googlegroups.com> X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 68.230.240.9 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of lojbab@lojban.org) smtp.mail=lojbab@lojban.org X-Original-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/t/cb7dd695a460ac23 X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/msg/c5450d5d6783dbf0 Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Length: 3713 Gearhead Shem Tov wrote: > I can't think of a better way -- for *me* -- to learn lojban than > trying to discover what the "natural" voice for lojban narrative might > be. Reading existing texts would give me some flavour, but I'd be > stuck in Dick and Jane level for too long to hold my interest. Better > to butcher a translation on my first go, then read the more elegant > stuff written by others to figure out where I went wrong, I reckon. I think you'll find that there isn't a lot of elegance in Lojban writing so far. I thought I was doing some interesting stuff translating the beginning of Burton's Thousand Nights and a Night, and trying to carry across his stylistics into Lojban, but that sort of thing takes a knowledge of the bells and whistles. The two major works in Lojban now are the translation of Alice in Wonderland, which has the virtue that it's source text is easily accessible, and you can thus compare how someone with good skill in the language translated certain passages. The other in Robin Powell's incomplete lojban-original novel, which is probably the longest single Lojban work (Robin says 42K words). >> A more conversational or stream of >>consciousness style adding in lots of attitudinal and discursive forms >>(selma'o UI) (with the nature and style of expression of these forms >>being key to showing a character or POV person's personality). > > This is a fascinating idea. Does there seem to be a voice and POV > folks have found to work well? I'm not sure many have done enough writing in multiple styles to comment. In older text archives, you will find translations of a variety of things from different source languages. Nick Nicholas did some Aesop from the original Greek and some modern Greek pieces. Ivan Derzhanski did a short story from Bulgarian. Aethelstan did Saki's "The Open Window", and John Cowan translated a short-short from Hakku Chinese. There was also a short joint-authorship project called ckafybarja, where people wrote original stuff in a common setting - but the pieces were generally only a few paragraphs. Nick is conveniently in Melbourne by the way, and may be the most skilled Lojbanist to have broadly considered stylistics - and he has the professional experiences as a corpus analyst to talk knowledgeably about voice and POV and such things. > Would I be best served trying to > discover the lojban equivalent of the 3rd person limited POV that's my > default in English? Or would, say, something goofy such as second > person present tense be more natural? I would try writing a paragraph or two in a variety of voices, and post them on Lojban List (probably better than the beginners list for such questions, and see what others think. >>And no one would fault the ego of a real author writing his own story in >>Lojban %^) > > Hmm. Well, I do have a 700 word short-short that might be just the > ticket. I'll have a think about it. People can help you with the mechanics of the language, but only an author can really understand questions of expressive style. And we don't have many who are Lojban authors (I should qualify that I've been largely inactive for several years until the last few days, and there are some pretty good new Lojbanists out there, whose authorial nature and skill I am unaware of.) lojbab -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.