Received: from mail-qy0-f165.google.com ([209.85.221.165]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <3b-vFSwAAEGwVYTLKX-LOQSXXObcQYYQVOQbYeZc.MYW@groups.bounces.google.com>) id 1O25Kx-0005mw-Dr; Wed, 14 Apr 2010 09:21:20 -0700 Received: by qyk37 with SMTP id 37sf289604qyk.20 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2010 09:21:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:date:received:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=zlwQxmbKljIzaHR89VYUOyZRWT6QWf6J4U0TrZk4H6k=; b=GXv9fICA9fZdKXnc3woXoV+DLcFcDcX12lu6MMjZEbf9Y7aR7FJBrKAZ1FerSFRUN5 Qa7mopFT7V1ydtfU7lzdXL0GkdIHykvrcj+2Wlm6VP8vP2yND7kiMKbjnQyqmYyYf8l6 Iq64GdvkWV730wlQuAq2gWGphsd8UWcKjb5mU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:x-thread-url:x-message-url:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=CVP7kicknMW7zJ+y6WlFKPb5pG86LCPTQ03Wif8pIv5J6iIjOrcwKWgxR/8nAE7J+J ROWFGWQ6aCYtyDHYy8F4M4+VwS8ivNnGf+rrw1R1+A+9cashiFEcn1LPtAB5O3lB0tIm 6H/bAZ+0MiTSJ0VELVhhalzRZt4EZx+ZILxPM= Received: by 10.229.2.72 with SMTP id 8mr256951qci.28.1271262063589; Wed, 14 Apr 2010 09:21:03 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.34.9 with SMTP id j9ls383347qcd.3.p; Wed, 14 Apr 2010 09:21:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.11.196 with SMTP id u4mr544533qcu.27.1271262060740; Wed, 14 Apr 2010 09:21:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.11.196 with SMTP id u4mr544530qcu.27.1271262060204; Wed, 14 Apr 2010 09:21:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f45.google.com (mail-vw0-f45.google.com [209.85.212.45]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 24si99071qyk.6.2010.04.14.09.20.59; Wed, 14 Apr 2010 09:20:59 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.45 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.45; Received: by vws19 with SMTP id 19so114459vws.32 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 2010 09:20:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.167.140 with HTTP; Wed, 14 Apr 2010 09:20:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 12:20:58 -0400 Received: by 10.220.88.81 with SMTP id z17mr4243668vcl.34.1271262058955; Wed, 14 Apr 2010 09:20:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: broda unless lo nu brode From: Luke Bergen To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.45 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: X-Thread-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/t/e6c9e00e300100bd X-Message-Url: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/msg/ea5bc2aa6637951a Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6470cf870c512048434c3de Content-Length: 4954 --0016e6470cf870c512048434c3de Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Nevermind, after some more searching I found 9:13 in the CLL: Contradictory negation involving BAI cmavo is performed by appending ``-nai'' (of selma'o NAI) to the BAI. A common use of modals with ``-nai'' is to deny a causal relationship: 13.1) mi nelci do mu'inai le nu do nelci mi I like you, but not because you like me. So, there's that. That leads me to another question though. One of the examples that the CLL used shows a scenario like {broda bai tu'a mi} which seemed funny to me. After looking up {tu'a} I see: tu'a LAhE the bridi implied by extracts a concrete sumti from an unspecified abstraction; equivalent to le nu/su'u [sumti] co'e Now, is the output of {tu'a ko'a} a sumti or a bridi? Because the two things are not at all the same (BAI takes a sumti, not a bridi!). It seems that {tu'a} produces a sumti (that's how everyone seems to use it anyawy), but if that's the case then "the bridi implied by" seems very misleading. On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 10:57 AM, Luke Bergen wrote: > I have seen (and often use) {broda va'o lo nu brode} to mean "broda > when/if/under-conditions lo nu brode". But what if I want to say something > like: "go visit john unless he doesn't want you to". Can I use {BAInai} to > mean something like the inverse of {BAI}? e.g. {ko vitke la djan va'onai > lo nu ri na djica}. > > Or if I say {mi viska do sepi'onai lo darctatci} have I just said "I see > you without using a telescope", something entirely different, or something > non-grammatical? > > pe'u ki'e > > mi'e pafcribe > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --0016e6470cf870c512048434c3de Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nevermind, after some more searching I found 9:13 in the CLL:

Contradictory negation involving BAI cmav= o is performed by appending ``-nai'' (of selma'o NAI) to the BA= I. A common use of modals with ``-nai'' is to deny a causal relatio= nship:

13.1)    mi nelci do mu'inai le=
 nu do nelci mi
    I like you, but not because you like me.

So, t=
here's that.

That leads me to another question though.  One o=
f the examples that the CLL used shows a scenario like {broda bai tu'a =
mi} which seemed funny to me.  After looking up {tu'a} I see:

 tu'a      LAhE     the bridi implied by                      extr=
acts a concrete sumti from an unspecified abstraction; equivalent to le nu/=
su'u [sumti] co'e

Now, is the output of {tu'a ko'=
a} a sumti or a bridi?  Because the two things are not at all the same (BAI=
 takes a sumti, not a bridi!).  It seems that {tu'a} produces a sumti (=
that's how everyone seems to use it anyawy), but if that's the case=
 then "the bridi implied by" seems very misleading.

On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 10:57 AM, Luk= e Bergen <luk= eabergen@gmail.com> wrote:

I have seen (and often use) {broda va'o lo nu brode} to mean "brod= a when/if/under-conditions lo nu brode". =A0But what if I want to say = something like: =A0"go visit john unless he doesn't want you to&qu= ot;. =A0Can I use {BAInai} to mean something like the inverse of {BAI}? =A0= e.g. =A0=A0{ko vitke la djan va'onai lo nu ri na djica}.

Or if I say {mi viska do sepi'onai lo darctatci} have I = just said "I see you without using a telescope", something entire= ly different, or something non-grammatical?

pe'= ;u ki'e

=A0mi'e pafcribe

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