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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] cei
From: tijlan <jbotijlan@gmail.com>
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On 19 April 2010 20:29, Geoffrey Stewart <geoffstewart56@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> 2010/4/18 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
>
>  On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 8:07 PM, tijlan <jbotijlan@googlemail.com> wrote=
:
>> > Is it grammatical to introduce a lujvo with "cei" following a tanru,
>> > even if no pro-bridi is involved, like this:
>> >
>> >  ti carna nalci vinji cei carna'ivinji
>>
>> It's grammatical, but the question is, what does it mean?
>>
>> "cei" identifies the two predicates it joins, but a tanru and the
>> lujvo made with the tanru elements usually will be two different
>> predicates.
>>
>> The tanru has the same place structure of the rightmost element.
>> (Except when "co" is involved, then things get complicated.)
>>
>> The lujvo will have its own usually different place structure, based
>> on the arguments of all of its components. So strictly speaking it
>> would not make sense to connect a lujvo and a tanru with "cei" that
>> way, unless you are defining the lujvo as having the same meaning of
>> the tanru.
>>
>>
> I think that was what he was trying to do, seeing how the rafsi his lujvo
> is composed of are from the gismu in the tanru.
>

Yes, and I didn't pay enough attention to the probable asymmetry between th=
e
place structures of each connected selbri. Also, according to jbofi'e, "cei=
"
would assign "carna'ivinji" only to the tertau "vinji":

 [ ( ti ) << | | carna nalci | vinji cei carna'ivinji | >> ]

(... which appears to me odd though, since the official definition says the
target of "cei" is a selbri, not a brivla, and this "vinji" is not an
individual selbri.)

I should have used "zei":

 ti carna zei nalci zei vinji cei carna'ivinji
 [ ( ti ) << | carna zei nalci zei vinji | cei carna'ivinji >> ]

mu'o mi'e tijlan

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<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 19 April 2010 20:29, Geoffrey Stewart <span d=
ir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:geoffstewart56@gmail.com">geoffstewart56@g=
mail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); p=
adding-left: 1ex;">
<br><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">2010/4/18 Jorge Llamb=EDas <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:jjllambias@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jjllambias@gmail=
.com</a>&gt;</span><div class=3D"im"><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"padding-left: 1ex; margin: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);">
<div>On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 8:07 PM, tijlan &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jbotijla=
n@googlemail.com" target=3D"_blank">jbotijlan@googlemail.com</a>&gt; wrote:=
<br>&gt; Is it grammatical to introduce a lujvo with &quot;cei&quot; follow=
ing a tanru,<br>

&gt; even if no pro-bridi is involved, like this:<br>&gt;<br>&gt; =A0ti car=
na nalci vinji cei carna&#39;ivinji<br><br></div>It&#39;s grammatical, but =
the question is, what does it mean?<br><br>&quot;cei&quot; identifies the t=
wo predicates it joins, but a tanru and the<br>

lujvo made with the tanru elements usually will be two different<br>predica=
tes.<br><br>The tanru has the same place structure of the rightmost element=
.<br>(Except when &quot;co&quot; is involved, then things get complicated.)=
<br>

<br>The lujvo will have its own usually different place structure, based<br=
>on the arguments of all of its components. So strictly speaking it<br>woul=
d not make sense to connect a lujvo and a tanru with &quot;cei&quot; that<b=
r>

way, unless you are defining the lujvo as having the same meaning of<br>the=
 tanru.<br>
<div>=A0</div></blockquote>
</div><div>I think that was what he was trying to do, seeing how the rafsi =
his lujvo is composed of are from the=A0gismu=A0in the tanru.</div></div></=
blockquote><div><br>Yes, and I didn&#39;t pay enough attention to the proba=
ble asymmetry between the place structures of each connected selbri. Also, =
according to jbofi&#39;e, &quot;cei&quot; would assign &quot;carna&#39;ivin=
ji&quot; only to the tertau &quot;vinji&quot;:<br>
<br>=A0[ ( ti        )            &lt;&lt; |  |  carna               nalci =
    |           vinji             cei              carna&#39;ivinji  | &gt;=
&gt; ]<br><br>(... which appears to me odd though, since the official defin=
ition says the target of &quot;cei&quot; is a selbri, not a brivla, and thi=
s &quot;vinji&quot; is not an individual selbri.)<br>
<br>I should have used &quot;zei&quot;:<br><br>=A0ti carna zei nalci zei vi=
nji cei carna&#39;ivinji<br>=A0[ ( ti ) &lt;&lt; | carna zei nalci zei vinj=
i | cei carna&#39;ivinji &gt;&gt; ]<br><br>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e tijlan<br></di=
v>
</div><div style=3D"visibility: hidden; display: inline;" id=3D"avg_ls_inli=
ne_popup"></div><style type=3D"text/css">#avg_ls_inline_popup {  position:a=
bsolute;  z-index:9999;  padding: 0px 0px;  margin-left: 0px;  margin-top: =
0px;  width: 240px;  overflow: hidden;  word-wrap: break-word;  color: blac=
k;  font-size: 10px;  text-align: left;  line-height: 13px;}</style>

<p></p>

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