Received: from mail-qy0-f166.google.com ([209.85.221.166])
	by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71)
	(envelope-from <lojban-beginners+bncCNTPpI2KGxDm-tjeBBoE9XQxKg@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1O6ZZv-0005aa-Ir; Mon, 26 Apr 2010 18:27:18 -0700
Received: by qyk38 with SMTP id 38sf29949587qyk.1
        for <multiple recipients>; Mon, 26 Apr 2010 18:27:04 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received
         :received:received-spf:x-authority-analysis:x-cloudmark-score
         :x-originating-ip:received:received:from:to:subject:date:user-agent
         :references:in-reply-to:mime-version:message-id
         :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to
         :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive
         :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type
         :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition;
        bh=N2LToLzGolnTt0/8/67jTKgIk6Q06AtUggSVFkVU/Sk=;
        b=KVLVRiKIh2WxtjvINs0VXzJndHaq8UHvThJxcTxfuuxEf8+bVsBFFgimX5yMJUzIa0
         B3cIscvlPhJz7XYBY8l0N9ksFj5MgccLIKqxqmmAE2zfOujW1i0XmVo+PW13HxvWmVVn
         EBDGXj6F+xcBYuc2oyV7lZGLWg41kImhb8nJo=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-authority-analysis:x-cloudmark-score
         :x-originating-ip:from:to:subject:date:user-agent:references
         :in-reply-to:mime-version:message-id
         :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to
         :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive
         :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type
         :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition;
        b=hUCgBANd9L1JAkCa6F7Ek3FS35Bp0hdI8XpmrJg4im8fw8R8IfAApsay2cPCH0RWjo
         xZbeJdRNjYGGVrV7AICdDPZSM71rLbutuiIJtk9KnYf8CZXrtA45C9hOgvJHeyd/6hPI
         qtbfrTqiazjdf+E2R4M9lMLivKxAVCu98Ww64=
Received: by 10.224.115.28 with SMTP id g28mr440153qaq.20.1272331622537;
        Mon, 26 Apr 2010 18:27:02 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.224.42.12 with SMTP id q12ls4753035qae.0.p; Mon, 26 Apr 2010 
	18:27:01 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.224.75.134 with SMTP id y6mr448753qaj.26.1272331621658;
        Mon, 26 Apr 2010 18:27:01 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.224.75.134 with SMTP id y6mr448752qaj.26.1272331621640;
        Mon, 26 Apr 2010 18:27:01 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.123])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 25si595050qyk.15.2010.04.26.18.27.01;
        Mon, 26 Apr 2010 18:27:01 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 75.180.132.123 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of phma@phma.optus.nu) client-ip=75.180.132.123;
X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=mJ2XtCV6gem0td6545d6o4z3SC3BoM2bxxOQ2/EEFjA= c=1 sm=0 a=dvm8tQugR-4A:10 a=ORa4HqFjfvEA:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=ITGCJgwGTuG7H/gKGaarIQ==:17 a=ep1xotUz31GrQXNc7KsA:9 a=TzrQLH5WHVrZ1SxnRzN_dQF48FgA:4 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=ITGCJgwGTuG7H/gKGaarIQ==:117
X-Cloudmark-Score: 0
X-Originating-IP: 71.71.198.100
Received: from [71.71.198.100] ([71.71.198.100:47352] helo=chausie)
	by cdptpa-oedge02.mail.rr.com (envelope-from <phma@phma.optus.nu>)
	(ecelerity 2.2.2.39 r()) with ESMTP
	id 25/85-22328-46D36DB4; Tue, 27 Apr 2010 01:27:01 +0000
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by chausie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24AFC3D5C
	for <lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>; Mon, 26 Apr 2010 21:27:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu>
To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] enzima & encima etc.
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 21:26:57 -0400
User-Agent: KMail/1.9.6 (enterprise 0.20070907.709405)
References: <k2h4de8c3931004261144l732bdfe7i582baba5376c7a9e@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <k2h4de8c3931004261144l732bdfe7i582baba5376c7a9e@mail.gmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <201004262126.58306.phma@phma.optus.nu>
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 
	75.180.132.123 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for 
	domain of phma@phma.optus.nu) smtp.mail=phma@phma.optus.nu
X-Original-Sender: phma@phma.optus.nu
Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact 
	lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban-beginners.googlegroups.com>
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/post?hl=en_US>, 
	<mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban-beginners+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/subscribe?hl=en_US>, 
	<mailto:lojban-beginners+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners/subscribe?hl=en_US>, 
	<mailto:lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Length: 1569

On Monday 26 April 2010 14:44:32 tijlan wrote:
> If I were to Lojbanize Spanish "enzima" and "encima", should I use the sa=
me
> lerfu for the same sound "z" and "c", resulting in the same spelling? If
> so, which lerfu?

I would use "s" for both; however, in Spanish voicing is nondistinctive on=
=20
both phonemes /s/ and /=CE=B8/, so you could use "z" for either. I am not s=
ure if=20
there's any environment where [=C3=B0] can be an allophone of both /d/ and =
/=CE=B8/,=20
since my accent uses /s/ for both "z" and "s".

As far as I can figure out, the Latin American dialects originated in=20
Andalusia, which shares both the leveling of /s/ and /=CE=B8/ (though in so=
me=20
Andalusian dialects they're both pronounced /=CE=B8/) and the disuse=20
of "vosotros".

I have proposed "zmase" for "enzima".

> Also, should the Lojbanization of Russian sounds reflect its velarization
> such as in "e" and "=D1=8F", for the purpose of experimental gismu etymol=
ogy?

Looking at some actual gismu etymologies:
carmi: =D1=8F=D1=80=D0=BA=D0=B8=D0=B9 (iark)
bisli: =D0=BB=D1=91=D0=B4 (liot)
ckiku: =D0=BA=D0=BB=D1=8E=D1=87 (kliuc)
So apparently yes.

Pierre
--=20
li fi'u vu'u fi'u fi'u du li pa

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@=
googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
-beginners?hl=3Den.