Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O9kDr-0005Xv-Ik; Wed, 05 May 2010 12:25:39 -0700 Received: by wyb36 with SMTP id 36sf2614848wyb.16 for ; Wed, 05 May 2010 12:25:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=s669g3OTIw8Jgz5nswh6q97i5tgcUTbGO3clGQnQw8M=; b=wTnik/iLTCerWzP+wPKGJfrdeWx4m1EPBO48ETMu9ZfcndQSwJoYoXnPwEikbGs3n6 E/b2/Sy3ciu2Vo6qKyAQ9NMo9LTT5V5Sc+JRcXazHDce4/UFk2GVji/RuOF2Ivv+C7CP 4/linOFyiZtqELTFqFA5byY87cDMe6Eqng6Qg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=jekhPzJtmnuyOamAtXjeegywsFprV0OcL+YuIAevdJhdImMwGlgEIv5aCdcGrch4Ni JEgK6139CStII16QD71R6x6+jyNuwpvab9YnSqCEv/72CLK5kqYPdT44ZGwj2wlWkYeB ALuylbIe/S5Lpq0s3AUpSFkQl5PBzLQx9WsLo= Received: by 10.223.64.206 with SMTP id f14mr4032090fai.49.1273087521627; Wed, 05 May 2010 12:25:21 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.213.59.76 with SMTP id k12ls1435076ebh.3.p; Wed, 05 May 2010 12:25:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.213.40.8 with SMTP id i8mr1208693ebe.21.1273087519709; Wed, 05 May 2010 12:25:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.213.40.8 with SMTP id i8mr1208692ebe.21.1273087519646; Wed, 05 May 2010 12:25:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f195.google.com (mail-qy0-f195.google.com [209.85.221.195]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 11si14251ewy.9.2010.05.05.12.25.18; Wed, 05 May 2010 12:25:18 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.195 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.221.195; Received: by qyk33 with SMTP id 33so6715138qyk.24 for ; Wed, 05 May 2010 12:25:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.96.199 with SMTP id i7mr6950097qan.354.1273087516467; Wed, 05 May 2010 12:25:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.141.10 with HTTP; Wed, 5 May 2010 12:25:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <2035EAA2-54C5-4259-BC7C-497A1CA2A4F5@mac.com> Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 15:25:16 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Proposed change to smart.fm items From: Ian Johnson To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.195 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00c09f89978b30126e0485ddc96e Content-Length: 11350 --00c09f89978b30126e0485ddc96e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I see {djica} in an abstract way as being similar to why we have all 4 of ri'a, mu'i, ni'i, and ki'u. The notion that "you want a thing" makes as much logical sense as "Sally hit you *physically because *you pulled her hair" in this sense, because whenever you want a thing there is something that you want to happen or be true (usually to "have" the thing or something related to that). On the other hand you could make the argument that {nelci} should then take a {ka} and then you "like about ", which would be kind of cumbersome. On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 9:45 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > > > On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 3:04 AM, tijlan wrote: > >> On 2 May 2010 01:10, Kevin Reid wrote: >> >>> I propose to change the English text for the following gismu place items >>> in the "Lojban gismu" smart.fm goal as follows: >>> >>> lo se djica something desired => a state desired >>> >>> To emphasize that lo se djica is not a physical object. >>> >> >> Yes, that's the official definition. But I don't see why it should not >> include a physical object, when {nelci}'s x2 does. >> >> >> lo te troci a method of trial => a method tried >>> >>> The existing wording sounds like "a method of testing", not >>> "the way we tried to do it". >>> >> >> {lo te troci} can also mean a method that "is to be tried", "is going to >> be tried", "is being tried" etc., not only the preterite (past) "tried". I >> suggest "method of effort" instead. >> >> The keyword for troci is "try", not "effort". All the English translations > need to have the keyword in them in some way. This is, by the way, the only > objection I have to any proposed changes now or in the future regarding the > Smart.fm lists. (Not that I might not have other objections for any > particular case, but this is the only objection that would apply to ANY > suggestion.) > >> >> >>> lo se troci something tried => ??? >>> >>> This seems misleading in that it sounds like "I tried a new food" >>> or similar. "something tried for" would be better, but I don't quite >>> like it. >>> >> >> Maybe "goal of effort". >> > > See above comment regarding my opinion on this. > >> >> >> >>> lo te jimpe a subject of something understood => >>> a subject understood about >>> >>> Trying to make the relation clearer. >>> >> >> Maybe "topic of fact understood". >> > > Personally, I think "[a] topic of fact understood" is actually worse than > "a subject of something understood". > >> >> >> mu'o mi'e tijlan >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >> > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --00c09f89978b30126e0485ddc96e Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I see {djica} in an abstract way as being similar to why we have all 4 of r= i'a, mu'i, ni'i, and ki'u. The notion that "you want a= thing" makes as much logical sense as "Sally hit you physical= ly because you pulled her hair" in this sense, because whenever yo= u want a thing there is something that you want to happen or be true (usual= ly to "have" the thing or something related to that).

On the other hand you could make the argument that {nelci} should then = take a {ka} and then you "like <some property(ies)> about <so= mething(s)>", which would be kind of cumbersome.

On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 9:45 AM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 2= 04, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">

On Sun, May 2, 2010 at= 3:04 AM, tijlan <jbotijlan@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2 May 2010 01:10, Kevin Reid <kpreid@mac= .com> wrote:
I propose to change the English text for the following gismu place items in= the "Lojban gismu" smart.fm goal as follows:

=A0lo se djica =A0 something desired =3D> a state desired

=A0 =A0To emphasize that lo se djica is not a physical object.

Yes, that's the official definition. But I don'= t see why it should not include a physical object, when {nelci}'s x2 do= es.


=A0
=A0lo se troci =A0 something tried =3D> ???

=A0 =A0This seems misleading in that it sounds like "I tried a new fo= od"
=A0 =A0or similar. "something tried for" would be better, but I = don't quite
=A0 =A0like it.

Maybe "goal of effort&= quot;.

See above comment regardi= ng my opinion on this.

=A0
=A0lo te jimpe =A0 a subject of something understood =3D>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0a subject understood about

=A0 =A0Trying to make the relation clearer.
Maybe "topic of fact understood".

Personally, I think "[a] topic of fact understood" i= s actually worse than "a subject of something understood".


mu'o mi'e tijlan
=

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--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko klama = le bende pe denpa bu

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