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Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 21:21:35 -0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Proposed change to smart.fm items
From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
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Yeah, I took the example from LFB, which made that exact point, but since
you're probably also taking it from LFB you probably knew that anyway.

I guess what I meant is that any time {ko'a djica ko'e}, there is really a
{tu'a ko'e} that has to be involved. I don't say this because this is how
the word is defined now so much as because this is how I actually see the
meaning of "want." If you "want" a thing there is something that you want t=
o
happen (or be true, or whatever) that's involved with it, and I really
can't, in my mind, find an exception.

As for that way of defining tolcaudji, that's defined with a {nu}, which is
pretty much what I was talking about. That makes perfect logical sense,
whereas I don't honestly see {mi djica ko'a} for a concrete {ko'a} making a=
s
much sense as {mi djica tu'a ko'a} does.

As for {nelci} et al., I guess it depends on what you really want. I know I
wouldn't like it if {mi nelci ko'a} meant that {ko'a} had to be abstract,
but then I do like it that {mi djica ko'a} means that {ko'a} has to be
abstract.

mu'o mi'e latros.

2010/5/5 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>

> On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 4:25 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > I see {djica} in an abstract way as being similar to why we have all 4 =
of
> > ri'a, mu'i, ni'i, and ki'u. The notion that "you want a thing" makes as
> much
> > logical sense as "Sally hit you physically because you pulled her hair"
> in
> > this sense,
>
> Although if you pulled hard enough, the pulling may cause her to fall
> on you and hit you involuntarily.
>
> But this is different, because here we are distinguishing two
> different types of causes. (And we can use "te jalge" if we don't want
> to say whether the reaction was voluntary or not.)
>
> > because whenever you want a thing there is something that you
> > want to happen or be true (usually to "have" the thing or something
> related
> > to that).
>
> I don't think the issue here is about "logical sense". Surely you
> wouldn't object to a lujvo like "tolcaudji" being defined as:
>
>  ko'a tolcaudji ko'e =3D ko'a djica lo nu ko'a to'e claxu ko'e
>
> Why would that predicate not make logical sense? The issue is just a
> matter of definition, how broad the meaning of "djica" is, and what
> kind of things are djica-able.
>
> Whenever you see something, there is something happening to it that
> you see. Whenever you talk about something, there is something about
> it that you are saying, and so on. That doesn't mean that an object is
> not something you can see, or talk about, or want.
>
> > On the other hand you could make the argument that {nelci} should then
> take
> > a {ka} and then you "like <some property(ies)> about <something(s)>",
> which
> > would be kind of cumbersome.
>
> You could make similar arguments for lots of predicates. But why would yo=
u?
>
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
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> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.
>
>

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Yeah, I took the example from LFB, which made that exact point, but since y=
ou&#39;re probably also taking it from LFB you probably knew that anyway.<b=
r><br>I guess what I meant is that any time {ko&#39;a djica ko&#39;e}, ther=
e is really a {tu&#39;a ko&#39;e} that has to be involved. I don&#39;t say =
this because this is how the word is defined now so much as because this is=
 how I actually see the meaning of &quot;want.&quot; If you &quot;want&quot=
; a thing there is something that you want to happen (or be true, or whatev=
er) that&#39;s involved with it, and I really can&#39;t, in my mind, find a=
n exception.<br>
<br>As for that way of defining tolcaudji, that&#39;s defined with a {nu}, =
which is pretty much what I was talking about. That makes perfect logical s=
ense, whereas I don&#39;t honestly see {mi djica ko&#39;a} for a concrete {=
ko&#39;a} making as much sense as {mi djica tu&#39;a ko&#39;a} does.<br>
<br>As for {nelci} et al., I guess it depends on what you really want. I kn=
ow I wouldn&#39;t like it if {mi nelci ko&#39;a} meant that {ko&#39;a} had =
to be abstract, but then I do like it that {mi djica ko&#39;a} means that {=
ko&#39;a} has to be abstract. <br>
<br>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e latros.<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2010/5/5 Jo=
rge Llamb=EDas <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jjllambias@gmail.com=
">jjllambias@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8=
ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div class=3D"im">On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 4:25 PM, Ian Johnson &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:blindbravado@gmail.com">blindbravado@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br=
>
</div><div class=3D"im">&gt; I see {djica} in an abstract way as being simi=
lar to why we have all 4 of<br>
&gt; ri&#39;a, mu&#39;i, ni&#39;i, and ki&#39;u. The notion that &quot;you =
want a thing&quot; makes as much<br>
&gt; logical sense as &quot;Sally hit you physically because you pulled her=
 hair&quot; in<br>
&gt; this sense,<br>
<br>
</div>Although if you pulled hard enough, the pulling may cause her to fall=
<br>
on you and hit you involuntarily.<br>
<br>
But this is different, because here we are distinguishing two<br>
different types of causes. (And we can use &quot;te jalge&quot; if we don&#=
39;t want<br>
to say whether the reaction was voluntary or not.)<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; because whenever you want a thing there is something that you<br>
&gt; want to happen or be true (usually to &quot;have&quot; the thing or so=
mething related<br>
&gt; to that).<br>
<br>
</div>I don&#39;t think the issue here is about &quot;logical sense&quot;. =
Surely you<br>
wouldn&#39;t object to a lujvo like &quot;tolcaudji&quot; being defined as:=
<br>
<br>
 =A0ko&#39;a tolcaudji ko&#39;e =3D ko&#39;a djica lo nu ko&#39;a to&#39;e =
claxu ko&#39;e<br>
<br>
Why would that predicate not make logical sense? The issue is just a<br>
matter of definition, how broad the meaning of &quot;djica&quot; is, and wh=
at<br>
kind of things are djica-able.<br>
<br>
Whenever you see something, there is something happening to it that<br>
you see. Whenever you talk about something, there is something about<br>
it that you are saying, and so on. That doesn&#39;t mean that an object is<=
br>
not something you can see, or talk about, or want.<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; On the other hand you could make the argument that {nelci} should then=
 take<br>
&gt; a {ka} and then you &quot;like &lt;some property(ies)&gt; about &lt;so=
mething(s)&gt;&quot;, which<br>
&gt; would be kind of cumbersome.<br>
<br>
</div>You could make similar arguments for lots of predicates. But why woul=
d you?<br>
<br>
mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes<br>
<div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
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roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den</a>.<br>
<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

<p></p>

-- <br />
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